Episode 49: The Civil War Prophecy (D&C 87) for Dummies

It was good to hear you all engaged in this lively discussion (well, lively after Tom told us all to wake up). What was Nyal’s term — Leprauchan Logic? Whatever it was, it was fantastic.

The most interesting thing for me was listening to each of your arguments as they were colored by the beliefs and assumptions you each brought with you into this discussion. If you want to look at this as a prophesy that validates JS as god’s prophet, you can. If you want to look at it as throwing a rock at a barn wall and at least hitting some of it, you can. Is it safe to say that any interpretation of this is an act of faith? Maybe it’s time to have that Alma 32 discussion on desire and faith. But there was a lot packed in to this one. I need to go back and listen to it again.

Great episode, loved the back and forth!

It’s a little unfortunate that God’s plans are so important that they justify genocide, though. Seems terribly inefficient when you do the accounting:

Mormons in Germany: (65 years after the war!) ~36,000
(And it’s declining, activity rate perhaps half that.)

Jewish Holocaust Deaths: ~6,000,000
(Total deaths for the entire war: closer to 60 million)

Honestly Mike… you really think it was worth it?

I have issues with the idea that war is used by God to “soften nations” so he can then bring the Gospel to them. That kind of thinking is just ludicrous.

Some months ago I was thinking about this prophecy after a guy in my ward stated that it was this prophecy that cemented his testimony. I jotted down a few thoughts and then realized I had so much more to say about it, but never got back to it so it stayed as a “draft” in my blog queue because I kept thinking I’d go back to expand on it. I never did (what’s that saying, something about the “road to hell being paved with good intentions”?). Then this morning I was downloading the latest and greatest episode for my commute and I noticed that it was on the Civil War Prophecy so I thought I’d better finally hit “publish.” (Click on my blog above to see what I jotted down, if you’re interested.)

You added some of the details I wanted to get into — finding what newspapers Joseph might have had access to, for example, but I never doubted that he had access to this kind of information. He was obviously a pretty engaged fellow. What I wanted to do more was to discuss Nullification in greater depth to show how prevalent and important it was at the time, but I think there’s enough to give the general idea.

Great episode.

Except Mike. Dude, go break some eggs somewhere else to make your Gospel Omelets.

Great podcast, I have listened to it twice! Also, great comments; I totally agree with Glenn’s overall synopsis and Jon’s figures representing the lose/lose scenario for the building of Gods kingdom (by .05% of his earthly children) as presented by the church.

I have to say that I have had to redefine, for myself, the nature and existence of God (as I had really only been told what to think and how I should feel when I thought I had stepped into my own testimony). Here is the bottom line for me: God doesn’t issue kill lists for any person or persons under any circumstances (better for one to parish, to soften governments, to remember Him, or for some other mysterious workings). If God exists, He/She/It is love, knowledge, and rooting for our happiness…not pulling strings and secretly interfering in a covert and scheming way. God reasonably doesn’t live near Kolob or have white skin and a beard…or isn’t Rush Limbaugh (although you’d have to fight my mother in-law on that one).

Oh, “a” before “e” except when spelling perish. Also, perhaps I should have included blood atonement in the list of things my idea of God doesn’t sanction…in gleeful anticipation of the Will Bagley MMM ME release.

Like the podcast a lot. There was some great discussion.

As always I have to give credit to Mike for holding down the faithful position in a mostly unbelieving crew. Tom is good to balance things as well.

I agree with John though that this sort of ‘propehcy’ — if it requires such broad interpretation to be seen as a hit— is useless in any practical sense. How would it serve to help anyone who heard it in JS’s day… or even since? Sure, with historical hindsight apologists can piece together dots. But what does it offer the individual living in those times? Nothing that I can see.

In the end it seems the purpose could only have been to support the testimony of believers— and mostly those in in future years.

Personally I think Section 87 was Joseph Smith’s commentary on the latest news more than any divine insight. At least that’s how I see the evidence.

Also in my opinion-
The most valid part of LDS Church is the “lovey-dovey’ NT stuff while the OT wrath and vengeance of Early Mormonism is becoming less and less relevant. Hopefully the idea that the string of wars since the Civil was part of God’s plan is as well. There are few things scarier to me than a belief in God-sanctioned war.

I’ve tried to leave a comment a few times…one more attempt here…

OK. That was funky. Here’s what I tried to post before:

Some months ago I was thinking about this prophecy after a guy in my ward stated that it was this prophecy that cemented his testimony. I jotted down a few thoughts and then realized I had so much more to say about it, but never got back to it so it stayed as a “draft” in my blog queue because I kept thinking I’d go back to expand on it. I never did (what’s that saying, something about the “road to hell being paved with good intentions”?). Then this morning I was downloading the latest and greatest episode for my commute and I noticed that it was on the Civil War Prophecy so I thought I’d better finally hit “publish.” (Click on my blog above to see what I jotted down, if you’re interested.)

You added some of the details I wanted to get into — finding what newspapers Joseph might have had access to, for example, but I never doubted that he had access to this kind of information. He was obviously a pretty engaged fellow. What I wanted to do more was to discuss Nullification in greater depth to show how prevalent and important it was at the time, but I think there’s enough to give the general idea.

Great episode.

Except Mike. Dude, go break some eggs somewhere else to make your Gospel Omelets.

Great podcast!

Just an observation. If, as Tom says, prophecies can come to pass at some future time, then what is the point of the following verse?

Deuteronomy 18:22 – “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.”

No one would be able to test whether or not he/she should listen to a so-called prophet because they would not live long enough. Pretty weak this time Tom, usually you do better.

And let’s say for the sake of argument that JS did “hit” on this one. (I don’t think he did) What about ALL of the other so-called prophecies he missed on. Does the above verse say he can hit on one out of a hundred and still be a prophet?

Swearing Elder,
I have enjoyed your blog for a while now (ever since my Brother in-law pointed me in your direction…Shawn D. and my sis Cassie)…anyway, great post. Everyone should check it out.
http://swearingelders.blogspot.com/

This podcast exhibited a fascinating exercise in mental gymnastics. I thoroughly enjoyed listening to it and it ranks as one of my favorites thus far. I thought everybody had some interesting points, but I found it ironic that the “most definitive prophecy” in Joseph Smith’s arsenal proved to be just as ambiguous as so many other prophecies. So much had to be wrangled and cherry-picked in order for it to be the magnum opus of prophecies. There was just simply a heavy reliance on confirmation bias and argument from ignorance. I have to wonder, given the circumstances of prophecy (i.e. Nullification, state rights, Nat Turner, etc.), why so many caveats have to be given for the unfulfilled parts of the prophecy, especially regarding the war in all nations. Why not cut the ambiguity and mention that there will be a World War I and World War II. This would have given so much more credence to Smith’s abilities as a prophet. Regarding the political upheavals that were occurring, this prediction is quite unremarkable. I think Nyal brought up a valid point about the Iraqi wars. Furthermore, anyone could have predicted that some sort of upheaval was going to happen in the Middle East with the States by the 1960′s. I say that the Civil War prophecy is more a calculated prediction as opposed to divine revelation.

Ok, so here is my prophetic exercise looking at what is going on in the world and trying to warn people getting ouf ot the Church dominion. I am sure i will hit something LOL

Hear ye all nations of the earth, the voice of the Lord in regards to this generation.
Wars and rumors of wars will spread over the Canaan and my promise land, over the lands of the Lehi descendants and the lands of the east, even to the destruction of the governs of the philistines along with the wicked portion of the sons of Ishmael. Smoke and tears of blood will filled the caves and the skies of the nations, and all empires will shake, but the Lord has not forsaken you, oh Israel! My stakes will prevail upon the many mountains I will call you upon.
Build ye a kingdom and retake your possession in the land where my son Adam gathered his children. Call upon the nations my elected, and anoint them again in my secure sealing upon their heads, so if death comes to them or they are called to strike against evil, their exaltation has been already sealed upon their heads. Fear not because your wives and children will be yours forever.
My wrath is set against the evil fruit of the vineyard that speaks to the air and writes doubts in the conscience of my servants. For I the Lord will not be merciful to them and I will silent them.
Look at the nations and see the mark of Cain going forward gathering those who do not fear me. The Armageddon is near and I will reign soon to command my children. The hour and day ye don’t know but surely will come, like thieve in the night, unexpected.
Repent thee of your sins, and I will forgive you. Take the armor of faith and the sword of my gospel and strike upon the gentiles so they see no other option than to free my elected to be gathered in the New Jerusalem. Repent ye oh forsaken disciples of my son Joseph Smith, that have wondered in error and have point out the finger from the spacious building mocking my Church; that ye may be again reunited under my prophet and apostleship.
Elders, listen to my voice. Prepare all things necessary, I will anoint you again, so your death is just a step forward your sealed exaltation; for I am the Alpha and Omega, beginning and End. Amen

Ok, so here is my prophetic exercise looking at what is going on in the world and trying to warn people getting ouf ot the Church dominion. I am sure i will hit something LOL

Hear ye all nations of the earth, the voice of the Lord in regards to this generation.
Wars and rumors of wars will spread over the Canaan and my promise land, over the lands of the Lehi descendants and the lands of the east, even to the destruction of the governs of the philistines along with the wicked portion of the sons of Ishmael. Smoke and tears of blood will filled the caves and the skies of the nations, and all empires will shake, but the Lord has not forsaken you, oh Israel! My stakes will prevail upon the many mountains I will call you upon.
Build ye a kingdom and retake your possession in the land where my son Adam gathered his children. Call upon the nations my elected, and anoint them again in my secure sealing upon their heads, so if death comes to them or they are called to strike against evil, their exaltation has been already sealed upon their heads. Fear not because your wives and children will be yours forever.
My wrath is set against the evil fruit of the vineyard that speaks to the air and writes doubts in the conscience of my servants. For I the Lord will not be merciful to them and I will silent them.
Look at the nations and see the mark of Cain going forward gathering those who do not fear me. The Armageddon is near and I will reign soon to command my children. The hour and day ye don’t know but surely will come, like thieve in the night, unexpected.
Repent thee of your sins, and I will forgive you. Take the armor of faith and the sword of my gospel and strike upon the gentiles so they see no other option than to free my elected to be gathered in the New Jerusalem. Repent ye oh forsaken disciples of my son Joseph Smith, that have wondered in error and have point out the finger from the spacious building mocking my Church; that ye may be again reunited under my prophet and apostleship.
Elders, listen to my voice. Prepare all things necessary, I will anoint you again, so your death is just a step forward your sealed exaltation; for I am the Alpha and Omega, beginning and End. Amen

Nice prophecy Sionpiensa, I felt a little embarrassed at how much it actually felt like the D&C to me!

Sionpiensa,

Your prophecy is as good as any other I’ve ever seen and better than a vast majority of psychic predictions.

LOL, I guess the recipe for revelations is:

1 cup of contemporary events season with ancient geographical names
1/2 cup Danger, Horror or whatever destructive you can imagine
1 tbsp of hope
1/2 cup of ritual for an exclusive group of elected
1 tbsp of glory secured in life
1/2 cup of repentance call
2 cups of eternal hope, wives or words without end

Cook for two decades…don’t forget to writte it down and keep with you at all times

Voila!!!!

You got a Religion

If you want to serve cold… isolate in a hostile territory
If you want bigger servings.., eliminate all ingredients except for eternal hope and repentance and spread al over the world… do not add the other ingredients until the first two are well seasoned in the minds and the hearts

Cheers!

What’s it like in Mike’s mind. A place where the possible is embraced and the probable is dismissed.

Wo unto him who calleth logical fiction and fiction logical for he will perish in an opiate cloud of self delusion. Open thine eyes to see and thine ears to hear and commit not logical fallacies. For the deluded find the rational truth to be hard for it cutteth them to the very center of their delusions. Amen and amen…

BTW, I think Tom had his tongue planted so far into his cheek it left a permanent mark. Am I right Tom?

This podcast seemed to be as much about the “confirmation bias” as it was about Joseph’s Civil War prophecy. We seem to be inclined to see only that evidence that confirms our beliefs and discount or disregard all evidence that goes against it. Tom seemed to be more able to overcome the confirmation bias than did Mike.

I especially liked the comments about “possibilities” vs “probabilities”. Certainly it is possible that Joseph received that prophecy from a divine source, however, it is much more probable that he used the existing knowledge of his day to reasonably conclude the rebellion would begin at South Carolina.

If I would have known more of the historical events leading up to 1832 I would have had a far different opinion of Joseph Smith’s “prophecy”. To paraphrase something John Larsen said in Podcast #14, Science and Disbelief; “Not only was I wrong (about Joseph Smith) but I was profoundly wrong about something that is of immense importance.”

Thanks for a most insightful podcast.

I enjoyed this once again. All made great points. John I agree with your arguments, but are these not the same types of arguments you could make with any revelation. How do we read Isaiah in Sunday school. Do you really believe that Isaiah saw air planes and that is what he thought he was talking about? I have read historians that will say that John was talking about Nero when “prophesying” about the beast. Is this not how people have read prophets through out the ages. We read reread interpret and reinterpret. It is almost like it is a genre of literature and this is how we do literary criticism of this type of literature. Is this really any different to what we have done for ages to the Bible and now the 2012 crowd is doing?

I’m really enjoying the dynamics of the panel. It’s a livelier discussion when Mike is around.

Great podcast!

If the accuracy of this prophecy makes Joseph Smith a prophet, then there are many others who must also be true prophets of God.For example, Nostradamus and Edgar Casey got a lot more things right (at least through the lens of interpretive history) than Joseph Smith did.

I was a little worried at first (zzzzzzzzzzzz factor.) Things definitely picked up later in the podcast, turned out great.

John, I seem to sense a bit of disdain in your tone when you were reading the revelation, is that possible???

This whole PC reminded me of an episode of Mr. Deity when he is going through what things he will allow or not allow on the new world he just created. “Holocausts?” “Sure, allow those…..”

Hey guys here’s one more true believer viewpoint for you.

The fact is, as I see it, Joseph Smith was wrong about this, just like he was wrong about the second coming being right around the corner. I have never liked what apologists say. I agree that it’s disingenuous (okay can I still be called a TBM? I consider myself to be, but I recognize that my beliefs are more liberal).

When I was 12 or so I first heard about this Civil War revelation. I was fascinated by it and I wanted to learn more about prophecy, what it was, etc. But honestly, my interest in it dwindled by the time I was 13 I don’t think I cared that much about it. Unlike John’s experience, this prophesy was not really convincing evidence to me that Joseph Smith was a prophet as I became a young adult. I feel like the decision I made to follow Joseph Smith has two important pillars. 1) Joseph Smith was wrong on a lot of things, even on things when he thought he was speaking for God. 2) Deciding what stuff he was right or wrong about isn’t always necessary because I have faith that the Church in general will lead me to do good as long as I don’t blindly follow.

I have never felt comfortable basing my faith on some tangible evidence. Where is the proof that Jesus covered my sins, or there is life after death, or anything? There is none, and if you’re going to accuse Joseph of being wrong, well, yes, he was wrong, and while that might make some Mormons uncomfortable, it doesn’t make me uncomfortable nor does it make me want to read the BOM less or write the temple off as a Masonic creepy-land. For me, the Book of Mormon, the temple, General Conference weekends, the principal of eternal families, and many other things that the Church gives me.

When I was on a mission, I think I mentioned the Civil War thing once (only because someone asked about it) and I was doing everything I could to convince people that Joseph Smith was a prophet. If I felt like this was strong evidence I would have presented it more. I just don’t (again, this is just my view.) The gospel is not about guessing games, and I think the evidence is pretty much stacked against Joseph Smith when it comes to his attempts to “look all prophet-like.” But he was a true prophet just like my imperfect father is still a true father, and his authority was general just like my father’s authority is specific. Is my father right all the time? No way. But my father has not been the creator of a religion that has brought so much good in the world as Mormonism. I’m rambling now.

I love this podcast for its sincere approach. keep up the good work!

Derrick,

Isn’t this all you really needed to say?

“Deciding what stuff he was right or wrong about isn’t always necessary because I have faith that the Church in general will lead me to do good as long as I don’t blindly follow”.

You could have saved a lot of words! The whole point is what he was right or wrong about. He’s the one who made up the church so if he was wrong about most of it, then it’s not a church. It’s just a great social organization people grew up in and feel comfortable in. There are many organizations which do more good for people than the mormon church (Salvation Army, Habitat for Humanity, etc.) If that’s the main criterion for you to believe in, maybe you should look around.

Interesting Podcast. I liked the discussion as prophecies have always bugged me since I think people grab onto the ones that might be right and ignore all the times “Prophets” say stuff and it doesn’t happen. The whole “Speaking as a man” in my opinion is manipulative genius. In that I can see that JS was a master.

One part of the podcast and I will listen to it again. I can’t remember if it was Zilpha that commented on how it says all nations will be destroyed. Something along the lines of all nations will be destroyed and how could that even happen.

Well in the BOM. In JS world he created just that. For sure once with the Jaredites where they killed everyone off except one person. I guess with the nephites and the lamanites the lamanites survived. So they only killed off all of one nation.

Of course in my opinion that is all made up. The comment just made me think of that.

GOOD JOB everyone. Even Mike made some good points. Great Podcast.

Hey John.

You said something to the effect in this podcast that I don’t understand. You mentioned that you get somewhat exercised trying to fathom God condoning widespread destruction and mayhem in order to accomplish his purposes. I don’t see any reason to think that God does condone destruction and mayhem. He may simply know and understand that these terrible sorts of things/events are going to occur. He knows where human action/nonaction will lead and what the outcomes will be.

I think we need to give God some credit. We make him out to be like us. Often not knowing the beginning from the end. Some of you expressed your conclusions in this podcast based on assumptions that God’s time table for prophecy initiation, implementation, and fulfillment must fit within your time table so as to fit. I don’t see that as being reasonable. I don’t find Mike’s comments having to do with the prophecy stretching out over a longer period of time to be unreasonable at all.

If God lives outside of space and time as we understand it, why is it so difficult to look at the possibility that he may have nothing to do with the abhorrent activities of mankind (heard of free will?), but does know how things will evolve over time.

Afterall, if evolution is the method by which we arrived on the planet, then God is the greatest statistician of them all in order to have a handle on where random mutation would end up.

That would make him the absolute master of cause and effect. Knowing the end from the beginning. Being present in all things and such.

I’m really enjoying your podcasts. Keep it up.

Oops. Sorry about the choppy first sentence in my post. I should have proofed it!

Nice work folks. I loved the break down of the revelation.
I enjoy these more structured panel discussion more than the “Let’s sit around and BS ones.”

I think it best, when we think about God involving himself in human warfare, to reflect on the scriptures that discuss the olive vineyard. The pruning and grafting that takes place, and the burning and removal of the non fruit bearing branches.
All of this is done to help and care for the faithful and covenant making people. It is done in the spirit of love, we just need to use our vision that expands beyond this life.

Wow

And I thought LSD was illegal. Or do you use some other mind expanding substance Mike? In the spirit of love, God destroys millions of people? That’s like in Vietnam saying, we had to destroy the village in order to save it. Did you even read Jon’s post above?

Prophecy is so wonderful. One sentence means anything: skeptics translate it to mean “nothing” and the faithful translate it to mean “everything.” From either perspective, its real predictive value is nil!

“I think it best, when we think about God involving himself in human warfare, to reflect on the scriptures that discuss the olive vineyard. The pruning and grafting that takes place, and the burning and removal of the non fruit bearing branches.
All of this is done to help and care for the faithful and covenant making people. It is done in the spirit of love, we just need to use our vision that expands beyond this life.”

I’m not sure if this was meant as a tongue-in-cheek rebuttal to what others have been saying or a serious comment on how one should perceive the atrocities that occur throughout the world. Nonetheless, in reality, we are not talking about a vineyard with trees whose branches need pruning (a euphemism for wiping out entire populations in the name of religious advancement); we are talking about human beings who have a right to live peaceable in a way that they choose. Just because one chooses to follow Jainism, which is perhaps the one of the most peaceful and nonviolent religions ever establish, why is it necessary to impose war and destruction on them to advance one particular ideology? I find the notion quite appalling. I would think that an omniscient and omnipotent being could find more creative ways to put forth its view of salvation rather than destroying civilizations. Furthermore, “fruit bearing” is quite a subjective view. All religions have their ideas of bearing fruit and your idea is just one rather small view when in comparison to the rest of the world religions.

“[W]e just need to use our vision that expands beyond this life.” This statement pretty much exemplifies the philosophy of those who kill themselves and others in order to advance their cause. Not only is it for themselves, but they likewise wish to spread their particular notion of God to the world, thereby allowing all to achieve glory. It may not be very altruistic, but they think it will get the job done.

Randy S., “BTW, I think Tom had his tongue planted so far into his cheek it left a permanent mark. Am I right Tom?”

Busted.

I can think of no better case study of how many Mormons bend the facts to fit the conclusion that Mike’s apologetic tactics in this podcast.

If seems to me that if you simply let the evidence lead to the conclusion on the Civil War Prophecy it leads to quite another conclusion than the one the LdS Church would like to have us believe.

Yet another great podcast. Thank you.

Mike on this:

“I think it best, when we think about God involving himself in human warfare, to reflect on the scriptures that discuss the olive vineyard. The pruning and grafting that takes place, and the burning and removal of the non fruit bearing branches.

All of this is done to help and care for the faithful and covenant making people. It is done in the spirit of love, we just need to use our vision that expands beyond this life.”

Mike would you care to translate this into English for the non-Mormon speaking members of the audience?

For some reason I couldn’t help but Gestalt on “Blood Atonement” and ” Removing the Veil of Mortality from the eyes of unbelievers” when I read this for some odd reason . . .

Go figure!

I just listened to this podcast again in preparation for teaching this section to my seminary class tomorrow. The discussion reminded me of a personal history I wrote for a religion class at BYU in 1993 in which I had to answer the question: What will the world be like in 10 years? I wrote a couple of apocalyptic paragraphs about how Islamic terrorism would threaten the stability of the entire world. I was browsing my writing again in 2002 and was blown away by my own prophetic statement, until I realized that I wrote the prediction within months of the first WTC bombing.

The most likely answer is usually correct. I’m growing tired of explaining the possible over the probable.

Really like the article. No matter how much Mormons want to use the “free will” crutch, pain and all the bad in the world is inevitable. In fact, I’m not sure how free will even exists if God is omniscient.

Secondly, if Celestialites can visit the lesser two kingdoms an infinite amount of times (because eternity will last for an infinite amount of time), then I don’t see how that is much different that “together forever.”

Thirdly, if as Gods in the Celestial kingdom you must have a perfect memory… even a perfect memory of the pain you experienced in the 2nd estate. How is this different that the Terrestials/Telestials who long for the Celestial because they know they didn’t work hard enough?

Regardless, I welcome pain in the afterlife (if there is one). I would hate to live in a world where my frame of reference for joy and happiness is destroyed.

And there an infinite number of Father Gods sitting around doing what?