Episode 80: Leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses

As a member of the Mormon Church in Britain, the issue of Halloween always troubled me,and felt it had no place in Christianity.
It was an unwelcome import from the “American” church.

Excellent interview, as always. My mother’s family in the USA were all JW’s, so I found this interview particularly interesting.

Many thanks!

Dear Joe, Regarding your suggestion regarding “No Man Knows My History”, I myself read the book in the late 1960′s, but despite the fact that Fawn revealed so many truths, I desparately clung on to the church and family, and even to this day, have yet to send in my official resignation letter to SLC, although I have not set foot in an LDS church for over 20 years.
And as I look back now, Mormonism destroyed my own family relationships, and the remaining members mostly consider me as an outcast. Similarily, my JW family from my mother’s side experienced so much pain and hurt. I believe my maternal grandmother committed suicide in Atlanta, because of the pressures she suffered. Sadly, I was deprived of ever knowing my grandmother because of this.
Very tragic experiences to go through, but I think you have tremendous resolve and now the opportunity to build a new life for yourself.
Wishing you all the best for the future. Thanks for sharing your inspiring experiences.

Louis Joseph!
Why should we have to “salute your American flag” or fight your wars?? You, Cheyney, Rumsfeld and Bush can all go to hell with your wars.

With respect to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, many, many of them perished in Hitler’s concentration camps, for honorable principles they upheld and I consider are true today.
Come to Europe and visit a few of the concentration camps, where their memory and sacrifice is equal to that of the Jews and homosexuals.
You Americans never learn from history!

I can easily relate to what Joe said about seeing the faults and absurdities in other religions so much more easily than those in one’s own, even when some of the very same or similar absurdities are found in one’s own religion.

For example: I now feel highly embarrassed that I once took seriously the Book of Ether’s account of the Jaredites submersible barges, with only two holes (one on top and one on the bottom[how was that supposed to help?])for ventilation, and which took 349 days to cross the ocean, despite being propelled continually and steadily towards their destination by gale force winds! If I had read a similar account in any secular history, I would have immediately dismissed it as the purest nonsense!

At least Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t claim the obligation or right to murder apostates as too many Muslims do. I strongly suspect that some of them would, though, if they had enough political power to enact laws making it legal to do so.

Very interesting interview.

I wonder what “stick” the JW church has if the 144000 spots are all taken and the Earth is going to be made awesome anyway. Mormonism has Outer Darkness and the potential that you will be in a different kingdom from your family to make people afraid enough to pay and obey.

Mormonism has a lot of demon obsession too. I remember being taught how to identify a demon with a handshake – you won’t feel the demon since it has no body. As a kid I was terrified that one day I would shake someone’s hand and not feel it. I worried about what the demon would then do, once it knew it had been discovered.

I was told that no masks are allowed in the chapel because that would allow demons or Satan himself to move amongst us unnoticed. We were taught in Primary that dead smokers would be trying to grab the cigarette from our hand if we smoked. Then there’s the whole ordinances for the dead, and stories of spirits being seen in the temples. Mormonism is a very evil obsessed, necromancing religion.

As a kid I used to think the shapes you see when you first close your eyes was Satan’s face forming. I was terrified of noises or even closing my eyes. I wet the bed until I was about 13.

In retrospect I would have been far happier and less anxious if I was born out of the covenant into a family that focussed on reality and the living.

Thanks all! It was and is my hope that my story can help.

~Joe

Freedom of religion is viewed as a basic human right. In light of cults who destroy families, murder children, teach subversion to government and print literature on how to lie in courts to defend themselves,…it is time to reexamine what constitutes a religion.

Joe, I would love to hear much more detail about your story growing up as a JW.
I wonder if we can get John to do another intereview where you can go into more of the day to day life as a JW. As an adult and kid.

Anyway, very interesting podcast.

One of the best podcasts yet. Thanks John and Joe.

This podcast reminds me that a lot of the best early “therapy” I had during my faith crisis came from former fanatics: I remember one in particular who converted from evangelical Christianity to Catholicism. It was great to talk to people who could empathize with all the emotions that well up as you confront the end of one world (the world of the “cult”) and the coming of another. (By the way, I do not use the term “cult” with the intent to disparage or demean anybody: it just describes well the nexus defined by ritual, dogma, and the select community that shares these.)

Thanks for sharing your story, Joe. I really related to it, even though my experiences with family has been much less severe than yours has been. But it does make me think about how I’ll be “shunned” when my youngest sister gets married in the temple and I’m not allowed to go in. That’s probably the most formal “shunning” that the LDS church does. Keeping family members from attending loved ones marriages is pretty severe, in my opinion.

Thanks for this one, guys. John’s an excellent interviewer and Joe’s an excellent guest. My first real girlfriend, the love of my young life, was a JW. She was far and away the brightest light at our small school in the Ozarks, but dropped out her junior year, even though she was a shoo-in for valedictorian and scholarships to the college of her choice. She was so brave, but so young, and did not leave gracefully. I’ve always regretted that my own Mormonness at the time took me away to a foreign mission and left her nearly all alone to work out her response to life as an apostate. Thankfully, twenty years on, we’ve both found and made good lives for ourselves despite our respective religious upbringings and departures. Listening to this podcast, I’m reminded of a quote that I ran across last week – Rome wasn’t burned in a day. And I recall hearing “burn it down” in a previous podcast here. That’s what I was hearing in my head as I listened to Joe and thought back to the years Malissa wasted getting over the JW mindfnck and the years it’s taken both of us to get back into the good graces of our parents and families. Damn it all to hell. What a waste of human potential. It needs to go away.

Wow. Incredible podcast! One of my favorites. I could really hear your pain, Joe, when you talked about how much you miss your family. It disgusts me to no end when religions punish others like this. I don’t care how much “good” the religion does, there is no way to make up for this kind of atrocity. To quote Nyal, burn it down.

Thank you so much, Joe, for doing this. I also identified with your pain, along with a lot of other listeners. You are brave and strong. It really helps to understand that there are other religions doing the same thing as your own religion. They can’t both have exclusive truth, right? I hope your family will be able to move past their rigidity. Blessings to you! And Happy Birthday!

A terrific interview here John. I gained a new perspective on things with this one.

Another great article Eric – you’re on a roll! 

FYI, Joseph Smith III suggested the following lyrical changes to “Praise to the Man” to put the focus on the Lord rather than his father since in his opinion the W.W. Phelp’s original lyrics bordered on man worshipping idolatry: 

Praise to the Lord for the great restoration

The church to establish, the gospel declare

(source John Hamer, David Howlett, Barbara Walden, “Community of Christ An Illustrated History”; Herald Publishing House; 2010) 

And speaking at a musician, I must tell you that the only thing worse that singing insipid church music is playing it! Oy!!!

Of course, since The Church Handbook of Instructions tells us . . . 

“Organs and pianos are the standard instruments used in Church meetings. If other instruments are used, their use should be in keeping with the spirit of the meeting. Instruments with a prominent or less worshipful sound, such as most brass and percussion, are not appropriate for sacrament meeting.”[1]

. . . I need never worship about having to be called on to play in a Mormon Church meeting.  

However, since it also tells us . . . 

“The hymns of the Church are the basic music for Latter-day Saint meetings and are standard for all congregational singing. Hymns are also encouraged for prelude and postlude music, choir music, and special selections.

Music in Church meetings should help members worship, feel the sacred spirit of the Sabbath, and feel the spirit of revelation. This music should not draw attention to itself or be for demonstration. Some religiously oriented music in a popular style is not appropriate for sacrament meetings.”[1]

. . . the Brethren need never worry about me joining their boring, backward, culturally irrelevant, insular, and out-of-touch church! 

So I guess, in the end, all is as it should be! 
 

[1] source http://lds.org/cm/display/0,17631,4987-1,00.html#3 ; retrieved date of post

My vote for worst hymn would have to be for ”If You Could Hie to Kolob”

I always think of “Follow the Prophet” when I hear apologists say that just because the prophets are often wrong doesn’t mean they’re not speaking for God.

Follow the Prophet. He knows the way. Unless he doesn’t.

When I hear “Families Can Be Together Forever,” I keep waiting for the singers to go for the sales close.

Families can be together forever, but only if you take advantage of this fabulous offer! Give us most of your time and disposable income! Call now! Missionaries are standing by!

Actually, most people who have some faith in God already believe that they will be with beloved family members in heaven. The first time that I heard the Church breathlessly announce that families can be together forever, I thought ”Well, of course. Duh.”