Episode 118b: Polygamy Manifesto for Dummies Part 2

As always, Mike was enlightening. I learned that as a resurrected being, I will have no blood, therefore, no erections. Useful information. I will be spared the need to reach for a towel when I attend nudist functions in the hereafter.

That was a spirited and an incredibly fun podcast. Thanks for the review of Manifesto #2 Dummies podcast. John and the rest of you are so entertaining when you allow yourself to be yourselves and cut loose.

Fantastic podcast – one of the best yet. At one point, John mentioned cataloguing the Mormon splinter groups. There’s a great wiki site that has already done a lot of that: http://ldsmovement.pbworks.com/w/page/15644454/FrontPage

Excuse me, I have to go now to find a chicken to wear on my head.

Great podcast.

What I always come away from when a discussion of polygamy takes any form is a general confusion and dismay. I get that god is possibly beyond my level of thinking to the point that I can comprehend his/her purposes and workings. Tom suggests this, and I have heard this type of comment in response to every doubt I have ever expressed to anyone. “Just have faith, it will all work out in the end.” And flatly I just say BS! Enough. (no offense, Tom…). At some point the fully restored gospel in its plain and simple form has to be just that – plain and simple. Polygamy, what a mess. What a disaster. What a complete bullet to the head of Mormonism. You said it, Tom – it’s issue numero uno! At one point I would have claimed there is nothing that was singular in killing off the church for me as real and divine, but the more and more polygamy gets discussed and rehashed, the more it is clear for me that it was, and continues to be, one gigantic FUBAR.

John, thanks for also pointing out that the “vision” of the church in ruin if polygamy was continued was not much of a vision. Like saying it might rain as you walk through the accumulating puddles on the sidewalk.

Twas shocking to hear Mike back on the wire as well. Not sure what to think but grateful he was relatively timid.

Polygamy. At one point an Angel with a sword is making it very clear how to proceed and then we are left with the ambiguity and half-truths of “to whom it may concern”. And the church wants credibility? Come on!

And the time you spent on the conference address of the manifesto, the voting, the tears, the lack of response from the congregation – that is really good detail to help put it in context and make it more real. What a terrible, terrible mess. What a disaster!

More of this, please! This is the kind of stuff that I can listen to over and over and walk away with more understanding, (and admittedly even more questions). I am pulling back out my Quinn books as I type to re-read some of the things you covered.

Thanks!

Best book I’ve read on the subject— Utah Polygamy and the Manifesto….as well as post-Manifesto polygamy is Solemn Covenant: THE MORMON POLYGAMOUS PASSAGE by B. Carmon Hardy.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0252018338/rpcman

Some have called the book Quinn had wanted to write following his publishing of his papers on post-Manifesto polygamy.

Clearly the Manifesto was not viewed in 1890 as it is now. Many most saw it as way to get the gov’t off the Church’s back and not revelation or binding. The need for another document in 1904 seems to bear that out. The problem was made worse by the mixed messages sent by LDS leadership. Leaders were approving marriages and marrying more wives themselves while saying that such marriages had ended publicly. After the Manifesto the 1st Presidency which had exclusive control of sealings delegated the power out so that marriages could continue and they could maintain plausible deniability. Eventually the idea was that despite claiming that all plural sealings had ended they would continue in Mexico and Canada— although they still continued to a smaller degree in the US as well— w/o the Brethren needing to be directly involved. Defenders say that post manifesto polygamy was the result of local leaders acting on their own accord but it appears that the plan was form the top that local leaders continue and allow the 15 (or at least the 1st pres.) to try an remain ignorant of the details.

Anyway I think it’s interesting how a document that was viewed as — as Charles W. Penrose put it— a way to “beat the Devil at his own game” to now being a canonized “revelation.”

Good podcast. I suggest people check out the Hardy book as well. It’s good stuff.

The Abrahamic Covenant is quickly becoming a podcast worthy of mythos and legend. QUICK! Where’s Glenn to start with his folklore about the origins of the podcast!

Heber J Grant was in fact a polygamist and had three wives. I just had a chance to listen. Thought this should be corrected as it seems pretty critical i.e., a polygamist prophet in 1945. He married a first time in 1877 and then twice more in 1884. It’s your podcast but hey why not et it right, as if there isn’t enough bad info out there already. Few, very few Mormons today understand that polygamy was being practiced by most of their leaders even into the 50′s. If they knew that they might wake up a bit. Polygamy isn’t an old issue for the church. You might consider a podcast on why the church took the stand publicly over Colo City polygamists, you will learn enough to know it was a repeat of what happened 80 years earlier.

By the way it might also be a good thing for listeners to understand a man today who was sealed to a women in the temple need only have a temple clearence in order to marry a second. Although a civil divorce is typically necessary, there is seldom cancellation of the 1st eternal marriage. This is what caused me to start questioning and eventually leave. I refused to be a plig. Thanks!