Episode 130: Grant Palmer

Heather_ME, Back in November 2009, the Church actually came out in support of a pair of nondiscrimination ordinances that bar landlords and employers from discriminating based on sexuality–in Salt Lake City only. I thought this was interesting, especially since it was so close to the announcement of the City Creek Development. I think the unexpected support of the Church for these ordinances is directly related to their business interests in the development. By that I mean, the Church would hate to have potential retailers or real estate developers boycott or “blackball” the new mall if the Church didn’t support housing and employment protections for the LGBT community. Well played, very well played.

I remember being on my mission, and talking to an antagonistic evangelical christian about what baptism and the covenant we make with Christ means. I used the Stephen Robinson scripture citation list, and after a few minutes the person calmed down a little, but still had the look in his eye like I was lying to him. I did my best to explain that this is it man, this is what we believe about the atonement of Christ. Here, look at this scripture in the Book of Mormon etc… I felt frustrated, because you’d think evangelical christians, and mormons would/should get along with each other.

After that I started to notice that a lot of LDS folks really did understand simple things like baptism differently than I did. I chalked it up to members not understanding their own doctrine. It never put me in a bind or anything – I could always reference ‘Believing Christ’ or cite the relevant chapter and verse. Over time I noticed different strains of larger disagreements of doctrine, history, etc…

I remember talking to a friend who had been talking to a coworker. “He pointed out that there has been no archaeological evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon and he thought that my belief would just be devastated at that point.” I remember saying at the time “Nevertheless, the Book of Mormon has been very useful to me.” Whenever I would come across problem areas in my mind, I would always come back to the idea that Joseph Smith couldn’t have written the Book of Mormon. There’s too much in there, and it ties in too well with the Old and New Testament.

Around this same time, I happened to read ‘Under The Banner of Heaven’, and I was surprised how much I liked the book, and how even-handed Krakauer was with mainstream LDS people. I recommended it to several LDS friends, and even read a couple of other books by the same author. But what really surprised me the most was learning that John Taylor had died in hiding, ready to go down with the ship, unwilling to give up polygamy. I couldn’t believe how well that information had been skirted around my whole life. The quote about how the Prophet will never lead the church astray, because God would kill him first. The subtext of that quote has to be “The way it happened with John Taylor” There’s this fascinating real story here, and it gets swept under the rug, and taken to the backyard and buried because it starts to peel apart this carefully pieced together faith narrative.

But there was one thing in my mind that kept everything from completely falling apart in my mind. The Book of Mormon acted like this gigantic dam, that kept the flood of apostasy at bay in my mind. And there was me sitting there with my finger in the dike saying “Joseph Smith couldn’t have written this book.” Anytime I encountered some problem area I would just go back to the Book of Mormon in my mind.

Then I encountered Grant Palmer. Grant Palmer provided the explanation of how Joseph Smith put the Book of Mormon together, and traced the foundational stories back in a plausible way, showing how it could have happened. The dike burst in my mind. There were other small events where the faith narrative had been peeled apart. But nothing so dramatic as listening to Grant Palmer’s mormon stories podcast, then reading his book. Humpty dumpty fell off the wall, and isn’t going to get put together again. At the time I thought my world was coming to an end, and the dam bursting in my mind would leave nothing but destruction in its wake. But at the end of it, I’m still fundamentally the same person I was before. I still care about the people in my congregation. I still love my wife and kids. I still want to do a good job at work. But now I’m in this fringy category within the church. I still see the good very clearly, but it isn’t the same anymore.

Mike, this is exactly why some disaffected LDS gravitate toward being agnostic or atheist. Other religions are equally or more vulnerable to the deconstructing that collides with disaffected mormons.

I stumbled into a conversation with a local protestant today who is all into his church experience. I had him walk me through some basic ‘salvation’ questions and it was major weak sauce. What happens to Chin, who grows up Buddhist in rural china and never hears of Jesus? Hell? Afraid so. Sorry bud, but you’re going to need to show me a stronger Jesus than the ineffectual wimp you’re talking about.

I get what you’re saying here, and I don’t want to be like a defender of Grant Palmer or something. But you can continue your comment with a lot of things that discredit the church too. Do you want to find a propaganda machine pushing a narrative that turns out to break down at every turn? You can find it here. Do you want to find a place where literally every rule in the book has an exception with no coherent predictive power (God says thou shalt not kill, but elsewhere says thou shalt utterly destroy, thou shalt have one wife, thou shalt have many wives, be honest, lie for the lord etc…) You can find it here!

Try getting up in gospel doctrine and suggesting that everybody read the new testament epistles using the NIV rather than the KJV, and see what happens. Think a bunch of people will go out and buy a copy and thank you for the suggestion later? Nah. That Brother Tannehill sure is an oddball isn’t he? That’s more like it.

Quoting general authorities rather than Jesus. It happens. It would be easy to fix. You can easily imagine Elder Eyring getting up in conference and asking Latter Day Saints to refocus their minds on the words of Christ, even if it reduces the focus on what the general authorities have said in the past. It is also easy to imagine that conference talk becoming an instant classic along the lines of ETB’s ‘beware of pride’ talk.

Mike,
Your pompous rudeness (referring to this intelligent, highly respected, kind man as “This guy”, when you obviously know who he is, but won’t “lower” yourself to address him with common courtesy) is even a new low for you. Grant Palmer is heads above you both academically and as far as having a great deal of class and decency. Not too many people even take you seriously anymore and you have very little influence in your discussions and comments since you are like listening to a broken record. You are more of a joke than anything else on the discussion boards.

As far as this podcast – it was another excellent one and I’d like to thank both Grant Palmer and John Larsen for taking the time to record it. I have Grant Palmer’s books and absolutely love them. His “Insider’s View” has become a staple book amongst members of the church searching for the honest truth behind our religion. Palmer presents the well organized information so well with an incredible amount of research to back it up.

Thank you, Grant Palmer!

Mike, It’s interesting that the deep questions you long to hear an answer for happen to be the unique doctrines Mormonism happens to be prepared to answer. Also interesting that none of them hold answers which might transform someone into a life that displays the fruit of the Spirit.

I’ll concede that Christianity can appear anemic, but that’s only true if you only expose yourself to Joel Osteen and Robert Schuler. Pick up some books by Dallas Willard, Richard Foster, JP Moreland, NT Wright or Tim Keller.

I’m reading a book entitled “The Deep Things of God” by Fred Sanders. It’s entirely about experiencing the entire Trinity in all of our doctrines. (very similar to the last part of your comment). Pick it up. if you’re not willing to explore more than the low hanging fruit of Evangelicalism, you need to stop charging us with spiritual shallowness.

you.make.me.want.to.scream. Mike. you are so condescending that *the* word needs a subtext to include how you address *us*. people like you are why i left the Church.