Episode 204: The Resignation of John and Zilpha

How much longer are you intending to do Mormon Expression?

I can understand that in the heart of things you see a lot of people who have been run over by the church, but I don’t think the black and white/good and evil dichotomy is very useful. Mormonism is a rather silly religion, very inward facing, and not tolerant of dissent. But there are good and bad things about it, just like every organization, secular and religious. On the whole I think there is probably more negative than positive about the LDS church, but I still wouldn’t describe it as “evil.” No more evil than Wal-Mart, anyway.

It is a bitter sweet podcast for many of us. We identify with the stages that John and Zilpha have gone through and the necessity of moving forward with our lives. My heart goes out to their loved ones because they simply don’t understand just how necessary this is and they possibly will feel betrayed. Each one of us is in charge of our own feelings though and our own beliefs. I left the church in a flurry of anger and pain; they are doing it rationally. I support you in this decision John and Zilpha.

I had to chuckle Z at your comments about when you get a baby it is supposed to be Nirvana and it isn’t. Had that same conversation with a young mum. It is wrong to teach people these kinds of things that lead to them feeling less than, if they don’t show the same smiles. Raising babies is hard; it gets better – lol.

Over the last twenty-five years I have seen many great people who are also Mormon walk way from Mormonism. It is always hard for me to see them move on, but I understand their reasons. I wish you two the best in your future adventures. Linda Sillitoe’s poem comes to mind that she sent to Lavina Fielding Anderson after Lavina was fired from Ensign:

One by one
they throw us from the tower.
And we spread our wings
and fly.

John and Zilpha – I finally listened to this episode and here are my comments, in usual Elder Vader Style bullet points.  

- I stumbled into the OCD info-gorge phase of my faith crisis in February 2010.  I was keeping my life together, but mentally I was a wreck.  I found John Dehlin’s podcast pretty quickly, but it took me several months to come across Mormon Expression.  Both podcasts have been, for me, something I’m very grateful for.  Very helpful as I have moved toward an orderly exit.  What surprises me most, is that this isn’t the kind of thing you could really ask a good friend to do for you as a favor.  ”Hey, could you systematically produce an internet radio program that covers tough topics about a relatively new religion?”  

- The limited online conversations I’ve had with John in internet forums have been helpful for me.  I’ve always sort of gotten the impression that this is like the 100th time John has been over this material and he’s sort of bored with having the same conversation again and again.  But it was always helpful, because I was grappling with the issues for the first time in this new way.  This is why I think the podcast format is especially good, because if I happen to be grappling with a topic, and I can tell that I disagree with the panel, I can listen to the podcast a few times on my commute or wherever.  

- I remember in the run up to the Iraq war, I used to listen to the Diane Rehm show on NPR.  At the time I was pretty republican, and pretty hawkish in favor of the war.  But listening to the Diane Rehm show, she would sometimes ask tough questions, or bring up inconvenient facts.  But because her voice was so gentle and calm, she could get away with saying something confrontational that other radio hosts just wouldn’t be able to pull off.  Zilpha has that ability to say things where if someone else on the panel were to say it, it would sound confrontational, but when Zilpha says it, it sounds palatable.  

- I really appreciate the fact that everybody I’ve met in real life from the Mormon Expression world has been cool.  I’ve been overly cautious, in retrospect, about reaching out.  I appreciate that John and Zilpha have created a forum/community/group that generally attracts reasonable people, and repels obnoxious people.  

- One effect that listening to the podcast has had on me is I’ve been able to more quickly cycle through the post mo confusion.  One month for every year you’ve been in the church is a good rule of thumb.  

- Tithing settlement list of all the people you are sealed to… I was not aware of this.  This is so awful.  Ugh.  They’re aware I’m not going, and that I don’t believe.  They’re aware of some of my reasons for distancing myself.  Making it final like that will be like stabbing them repeatedly in the heart.  I remember on my mission, there was a family, who had a 16 year old daughter accidentally back over her 1 year old sister with a van, and kill the 1 year old.  I thought, how horrible it is that their catholic priest told the family that the baby wasn’t going to heaven.  This is kind of the same.  

- One of the comments above “Why go to war with your friends and family?”  I feel the tension myself when contemplating this.  Its amazing to me that leaving an organization that purports to be good for people generates this kind of dialogue.  What a powerful framing of the discussion on the part of the church to make such a conversation possible.  

I’ve listened to probably half of the podcasts. Studying church history and doctrine is a hobby of mine, and it’s been very in-depth over the past 5 or so years. I’m aware of all of the quote-unquote problems. My faith in and devotion to the LDS Church as actually increased throughout this in-depth study. I do admit many answers from apologists are disingenuous, including the Church, over the years.

I knew this was podcast a more “hostile” environment when I first chose to listen to it. My faith was never shaken (though it was ‘challenged’), but there were many frustrating moments listening, because I felt there was much misinformation and manipulation along the way, particularly in the episodes where there was no “faithful” perspective from believers, and even then, your “believing” guests were still quite liberal and NOM-ish in their views.

But I can’t help but notice John’s “coming out” in this episode. Granted, I have not listened to ALL of the episodes, but it’s now clear what was his agenda all along. He feels it’s time to move on from this podcast, especially if it has strengthened people’s faith and devotion to this “evil” organization. I hope everyone caught that. 

You see, he wants to be no part of anything that would strengthen Mormons’ faith. He wanted to be part of something that hurt people’s faith, that led people AWAY from this “evil” organization. I remember in many episodes, John has tried to say he doesn’t care if people stay or leave the Church, he’s only the innocent guy who’s sharing his story and perspective on Mormonism. He has no hidden agenda. But this was his agenda from the start: to destroy people’s faith to convince people to leave Mormonism. I know people don’t like the label of “anti-Mormon,” but isn’t this the very definition? His hope or agenda now helps to put context to how episodes were prepared and produced. 

Yes, it’s true, if I were to start a podcast on Mormonism, it would be designed to increase faith. I want people to embrace the principles of Mormonism, because of the happiness it has brought me, but at least I’d be upfront about it…  I’m not saying John was being dark and sinister (I can’t be the judge of that), and it probably went without saying that John would like to see more people leave the Church (I got that from the very first episode I listened to), and his podcast would help that… but this recent episode helped clarify, for me, what John’s agenda has been all along. I feel like he tried to soften this agenda (not quite hide it), so that the middling group of people would be open to listening to it. But his purpose is now clear. In other words, I felt like he was disingenuous. 

That said, I have enjoyed many episodes. I enjoyed the frank conversations on Church history and doctrine, and those were my more favorite episodes. They would discuss issues that Apologists wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole… I’m not sure if I can say this podcast helped increase my faith in and devotion to the LDS Church and Gospel, but it certainly helped me to research and read things I otherwise wouldn’t have read in my studies… so perhaps it helped indirectly. I’m sorry if that frustrates John, because I know he didn’t want that to happen, but it did for me. So I guess I found some truth to Brigham’s saying, “Every time you kick “Mormonism” you kick it upstairs; you never kick it downstairs.”  I hope these conversations will lead people to take an in-depth look at Mormonism. For me, it has been very fruitful and faith-promoting.

I know many on this site will either hate or scoff at my comment, but it’s my perspective. 

This podcast really got under my skin. I normally love Mormon Expression but what bugs me the most isn’t so much the Nazi comparison. It was definitely hyperbolic but that’s kind of John’s style… (only I used to see it as humor) John thinks the church is evil. The point of the comparison is that it is immoral to support an evil institution when you personally benefit from it, which I suppose most people would agree with.

The biggest problem is, everybody agrees that the Nazi party were evil but the people who stay in the church probably don’t believe the church is evil. So the annoying part about what he said is not the comparison itself but the disrespect for those who don’t believe in everything but who don’t believe the church is actually evil, or “Middle Way Mormons”.

John Larson has no respect for Middle Way’ers. This is also evidenced by the comment that Middle Way Mormons are miserable. Personally, I am bothered by some things and I struggled for a time but I am quite happy. I’m in a good place and by no means miserable. So for those who are in a similar boat as me, who aren’t miserable, he aims the Nazi bit. The message is: “Well, if you aren’t miserable, at least know that you’re immoral.”

The other thing I thought odd was his rationalization for “moving away from Mormonism” and not doing Mormon Expression anymore. He said he doesn’t want to be a part of something which, rare as it may be, might keep people in the church. If he said he’s just tired of Mormonism and ready to move on to something new, I can respect that… but come on! This is one more dig at the middle path. He doesn’t even want to associate with us.

John Larson ironically only has respect for the Hot or Cold, the TBM or the Anti, the black or white. There is no middle ground. The depressing thing is that a guy so articulate and smart and funny as John Larson has actually become a fundamentalist. We in the Middle are not with him so we are against him. We are the enablers of the church and therefore he cannot support anything which promotes people in that position.

I guess we just didn’t donate enough tith…mammon to the podcast.  Maybe if we had a fund raiser?  Pod-a-thon or a Cast-a-thon?  Not to be confused with, cast a thong.

How are we ever going to know the truth about milk strippings, hanging by a thread, and “I will go down” ?

Oh well, even MASH didn’t last forever.  Thanks again u guys and I will end like Joseph Smith as he translated reformed egyptian into english……adieu.