Episode 125c: Conference Review Part 3

31 comments on “Episode 125c: Conference Review Part 3”

    • Anonymous Reply

      Sounds like it to me. I was hoping it was priesthood or something.

      Odd. Never thought I be wanting more ‘conference.’

      • Anonymous Reply

        I accidentally posted a link from part 2 to part 3. It is fixed now. The priesthood session is part 2. Reload it to get the new content.

      • Anonymous Reply

        Part 1 Contains the Saturday AM & PM sessions.
        Part 2 Contains the Priesthood Session.
        Part 3 Contains the Sunday Am & PM sessions.

  1. I don't think so Reply

    Relief Society History For Dummies – – – – – Great idea for a podcast.

  2. Jay Bryner Reply

    John’s rant on sacrificing to go to the temple. Endowment house. Working in the salt mines and all that. Endowment room in the stake centers.

    That is exactly how I feel. Epic win. Absolutely.

    Sacrifice is one thing. But no need to manufacture sacrifice.

    • Jay Bryner Reply

      I’m going to name this dynamic the united order paradox, which my mind can’t let go of. In Northern Utah – specifically Brigham City, the UO worked pretty well. In Southern Utah it they were all a disaster. But the southern united orders had a big impact on everybody’s testimony. In the north… very little impact on people’s testimony.

      But can’t the church come up with a genuinely useful way to channel the sacrifices of its people?

    • G Reiersen Reply

      I also agree with John’s rant about sacrificing to go to the temple, especially considering (as John pointed out) that in the past, endowments and sealings have been performed outside the temples. Why couldn’t every stake building have a room set aside and consecrated for such purposes, instead of going to the great expense of building elaborate buildings for it? Even more reasonable, to me, would be for marriage ceremonies, church wide, to be separate from sealings for time and eternity, and open to all friends and family of the bride and groom, as is done in most places on earth outside of North America because of local laws. There is not the slightest evidence or reason to believe that this is in any way harmful to the marriage or to family values.

      As for the sacrifice part, however, I think most of us know (certainly the Church leadership does and most con men know) that it is human nature that the more they have been made to sacrifice or invest in something, the more resistant they are going to be to entertain the suspicion that they might have been duped, and that their sacrifice or investment was for nothing.

  3. MsRobyn Reply

    Where’s the PH session? I can’t wait to hear all the super secret man stuff.

    • Anonymous Reply

      I accidentally posted a link from part 2 to part 3. It is fixed now. The priesthood session is part 2. Reload it to get the new content.

  4. Chris Reply

    Love Mormon Expression, I have to say though, when John gets fired up, that is the true icing on the cake of the whole series of podcasts for me. I love when he just can’t let some piece of irrationality go.

  5. Steve Reply

    I just wanted to share my experience with this conference and listening to the podcasts. I live in Utah. I secretly these days tune into conference. To be truthful I think it’s likely the same motivation we who now know it isn’t true tune in….we hold some hope or even desire that we can find we were wrong, or at least find redeeming quality. For me as I tuned into conference I had to turn it off almost immediately. I heard the choir singing and my heart ached, and I began to cry like a baby. My hear aches over leaving. I miss friends and family and the church’s ability to unite us all in some common goal. As I sat there crying like a child, Elder Bednar stood and reminded me that I will forever have to be separated from the church. He spoke basically of those who leave. He got it 100% wrong with me and everyone I know that has left. Anger replaced the tears.

    I have a point I wanted to make. We are all victims of one of the most evil and life altering frauds ever perpetrated on mankind. Most of our families are still victims and have no idea. When I hear these pod casts and here some anger expressed and almost always immediately followed by an apology it strikes me as odd and shows the control the perpetrator still has on all of us. There is no reason that we as victims who have lost so much, and wished so badly it was true, and suffer everyday should have to apologize for just speaking the truth about the institution that has robbed us of most of our lives.

    Maybe this podcast isn’t the forum, but I hope you will all consider what I have said. It is no different then telling a rape victim their rapist has redeeming qualities then telling the victim she must apologize when she expresses any anger. I think you can see the continuing harm.

    Good job overall I just wanted to make a point. We should all be angry. We should have a place to express it. We should not feel we are going to offend someone by speaking the truth. We should not have to apologize for being raped by the Mormon church. John thanks for saying bullshit. Because we all know it is a lot of bullshit!

    Maybe we owe it to mankind to speak a bit more like John. What I mean by that is we all have family and friends in this growing church who are being robbed of the free meals on the cruise of life. There is no need to keep trying to put a nice spin on your comments, get pissed say how it is, people will be attracted to that.

    As the end of conference drew near I found myself wanting so badly wanting to tune back in in hopes I could hear something to change my mind but didn’t. I spent that night literally crying wishing so badly the church I had trusted my whole life might still offer me something, like an abused child really, and in listening to the podcasts I heard in the voices the same reason and motivation behind the comments and fascination with the church. It’s sad hurtful stuff guys…we can laugh or cry about it, but to pretend or apologize is sorta weak in my opinion. Give Zilpha and John the mic and lets rip the hell out of it this October. Let “I’m sorry’s” be a thing of the past.

    • Richard of Norway Reply

      Awesome. You said it, brother. Amen, and amen.

      Of course, I understand that John apologizes not because he feels he owes the church an apology but to those who might be offended by his words. So he is sorry if his words offend some people. Glenn has taught me that one gets further with the TBM’s with love and humor than with anger.

      But really, I’m still angry. Very angry.

    • Andrew S Reply

      (I think my first comment didn’t post)

      We shouldn’t be angry. Anger shows the control of the perpetrator as much as an apology.

      Anger is a slavery. But as we have left the church, we have freed ourselves from the various bondages. If we say “no” to the financial bonds (tithing) and say “no” to the time commitment bonds and the action bonds (e.g., so many meetings, the WoW, etc.,) but say “yes” to the emotional bonds, then what has it profited us?

      What has it profited us to leave the church if all we do is react in anger at the church’s every action?

      No, we shouldn’t be angry. We should look back and say, “I am better now that I have disentangled myself.” If we are not disentangled, then certainly we should strive for that first.

    • MJL Reply

      Good point. As long as the Church remains ambiguous about what constitutes a full tithe a member can pay on their net income and be considered a full tithe payer.

      We have to acknowledge that tithing is an income tax paid voluntarily out of faith and/or fear. This is a tax added onto the taxes we already pay by legislative decree. And it is a flat tax scheme which is more merciful to the rich than it is to the poor. That being the case I find Elder Pratt’s comment lacks compassion and understanding of the economic realities experienced by much of the Church membership, many of whom come from the poorer segments of society and indeed the world.

      • Mantisdolphin Reply

        The way the church treats tithing as litmus test for entering the temple, for saving ordinances, for being with your family (here and in the eternities), and then does the tithing interview shakedown for members faithful enough to go to these, smacks of the Catholic indulgences that Luther despised. Once your church is the only way to get to heaven, then gaining access is a seller’s market, and that is too easy for human beings to abuse.

  6. Anonymous Reply

    Concerning Elder Pratt’s talk in the Sunday afternoon session regarding the payment of tithing: I was a little put out by the statement he made (and this isn’t the first time I’ve heard this) that paying tithing teaches us to manage the 90% of our income that remains after we pay tithing.

    Is there anyone here who has 90% of their gross income after they pay tithing? I know I don’t.

    Speaking only for myself, if I pay a full tithe on my gross income, I’m left with about 67% of my income left – not 90%. Unless Elder Pratt has figured out some way to dodge taxes, insurance, etc., I’m not aware of anyone who walks away with 90%.

    Perhaps I’m making a mountain out of a molehill here, but it bothers me that a general authority can make a statement that, I believe, is flat-out dishonest. Yet, there is no way for anyone to counter, respond, or correct. Doing so is certainly a sign of apostasy, lack of faith, or worse…

    Thoughts?

  7. True Order of Hair Reply

    The general conference podcasts have some of the best commentary I’ve heard since the end of the Cold War.

    Many of you stripling warriors probably don’t remember this, but after each May Day parade in Red Square there was a lot of discussion by newscasters. They would try to determine the USSR’s direction by analyzing the speeches, the music, who was standing next to whom in the reviewing stand on top of Lenin’s tomb, etc.

    We would hear about the hero-workers of the nickel mines, and how their sacrifices were helping to secure the future blessings of Communism. This might be followed by a muscular anthem from the Red Army Choir or an uplifting song from the Young Pioneers. And then there were the votes, when the Supreme Soviet would unanimously sustain the Politburo’s decisions.

    It would be nice if the podcast contained more of Alf A. Omega’s analysis of the statistical report. Maybe he could throw in something about how the LDS-owned industries are overfulfilling their production quotas.

  8. Adam Bowman Reply

    My experience with Church welfare is that the church does not understand poverty. Every church GA is a successful middle class man. They seem to not understand the social and psychological aspects of poverty and the culture that it produces. This would go a long way of explaining why people make “bad choices” and really help to get to the root of the problems.

    • Jay Bryner Reply

      Or rather, there are certain aspects of it they understand very well. But with some very huge blind spots.

  9. Eric Reply

    During the afternoon review: “…we’ll leave Joseph Smith out of this….” This is why I listen to Mormon Expression!

  10. Kia Reply

    you guys crack me up. I listened at the gym and nearly droped a weight on my foot several times during the podcast. John, you truly have comedic talent. Great entertainment. Thanks.

  11. Elder Vader Reply

    The 40 minute mark through the 50 minute mark was the best part for me. I’ve listened to it on my mp3 player like 10 times, because there is something there that moves me – like seriously moves me -, and I have been trying to figure out why.

    Since my metaphorical shelf came crashing down, I’ve been very, very conflicted about all things Mormon. On the one hand I still love and care about everybody I grew up with, and have known in the church. Family members, missionary companions, friends from BYU, ward members, home teachers.

    And I still love most of the beautiful ideas I grew up with in the church. Zion, the place where the pure in heart dwell, where righteousness prevails, people are bound together in love, and there are no poor. The atonement, the idea that there is a perfect, powerful being out there who will digest out all the evil from the world, right every wrong, dry every tear. The idea of making a covenant with such a being, to join up with Team Jesus. The idea that God is a loving parent who has my long term best interests in mind, and same for you. The idea that God will not send anyone down to burn in hell without first giving them every chance to change and go to a much much better place. The idea that God’s plan is to get us into heaven, and live the kind of life he lives, rather than smite us down to hell because there are limited seats in heaven. The idea that I can join in that work and help move the ball down the field (in my limited way) to help bring others to Team Jesus. The idea that God’s honor is his power, that the universe does what God commands out of pure respect for God (I know this is a wacky Widtsoe/Cleon Skousen idea but it is still beautiful to me). And many other beautiful ideas that will shape my view of the world forever no matter what.

    But the reality of LDS Corp goes contrary to these ideas. Its the structure and the incentives that are built into the corporation. Keeping people anxiously engaged in something ineffectual and pointless. Unnecessarily shaking people down for time and resources in the name of consecration and sacrifice, just for sacrifice sake. Shaming and other mechanisms of control. Tying revenue streams to beautiful ideas, and strengthening the link in everyone’s mind with slick marketing, subtle and overt propaganda. Take your weak s*&% some place else protectors of the bureaucracy. You are moneychangers at the temple. Dissolve a few layers of propaganda and it is easy to come up with faster, more effective ways to achieve your stated goals. Want to get saving ordinances to as many worthy members as possible? Informed people without corporate constraints could come up with a dozen ways in a 5 minute brainstorming session. Want to encourage more formal education? Same. This goes for everything.

    Its the friction between LDS Corp strategy, and the reality on the ground. Is that where the anger comes from? I want to believe. The data makes that impossible. I could go on. But I’d have to start telling stories that I’m not comfortable putting in the comments section.

    John, Zilpha, Heather, Greg. Curious about your comments. It seems like you care. You used to be that guy who bought into the corporation, and seeing somebody work in a mine for 4 years away from his family to meet a corporate set goal of getting the sealing done in a faraway temple is just too much. Keep the beautiful idea. You don’t need the corporation! They say you can leave the church but you can’t leave it alone. Is this why? You still believe in a lot of the beautiful ideas, but you’re sad and angry that the corporation isn’t true to those ideas, and yet people are drinking the kool-aid and making the sacrifices. It breaks my heart. It makes me said way down deep. (That’s not stated very well, but its the best I can come up with at the moment) Is there a better way to get this point across?

    • Heather Reply

      Vader, I think the reasons I “can’t leave it alone” are extremely complex and thus not easy to explain. I think you’re partially right. I love the beautiful ideas but I’m sad they don’t measure up to what I thought they were. But I also think part of my involvement stems from the fact that I will never be free of Mormonism. Not that I want to be, necessarily. It’s just that Mormonism reared me. It helped shaped me into who I am. Also, the majority of my social circle (friends and family alike) are Mormon. Not to mention the fact that I live in Salt Lake City. But something changed for me when I lost my faith. When I believed I didn’t care. In fact, I actively avoided the church because it caused me too much pain. But now that things like eternal polygamy no longer have a hold on me, I feel free to explore Mormonism and I’ve become hooked on it. It’s endlessly fascinating. There are many reasons. I don’t know… Mormonism is just woven into my life, I guess.

      As for dealing with the frustration and sadness, I’m starting to just accept it as a fact I cannot change. I could try to ring the “change the church” bell day and night for decades and the only things that would happen would be: alienation from my friends / family, and a bloody forehead from beating it against an immovable brick wall.

      The NOM / Mormon Expression / Post-Mo communities have provided me with a hugely beneficial outlet. I find what solace there is to be had there and try to let the rest go. 🙂

  12. Adamtaylor Reply

    About the church welfare program: What I understand is that the church wants to help people out until they can back on their feat. That is why the church also has employment services. The church wants to help people but not have people be permenantly reliant.

  13. Anonymous Reply

    Thanks, folks! I love that I can avoid the drudgery of conference, and let you guys do all the leg work. It is refreshing.
    Stay well

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