Episode 130: Grant Palmer

John Larsen talks with former Church Educational System Institute Director, teacher, and author about his journey within Mormonism and his view of Jesus.

Biography/Writings/Reports

An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins

The Incomparable Jesus

Episode 130

36 comments on “Episode 130: Grant Palmer”

  1. Anonymous Reply

    I never thought of the mall in terms of asset / organizational protection. I guess it makes sense when you look at it from that angle, considering the economy and the activity / growth problems the church is facing.

    I’m still opposed to it, even in light of those things. Mostly for the ethical quandary they are creating for themselves. Clothing stores selling clothing that women are told not to wear…. restaurants selling alcohol that members are told to avoid… not to mention the possibility for discrimination with the housing.

    • Anonymous Reply

      Heather_ME, Back in November 2009, the Church actually came out in support of a pair of nondiscrimination ordinances that bar landlords and employers from discriminating based on sexuality–in Salt Lake City only. I thought this was interesting, especially since it was so close to the announcement of the City Creek Development. I think the unexpected support of the Church for these ordinances is directly related to their business interests in the development. By that I mean, the Church would hate to have potential retailers or real estate developers boycott or “blackball” the new mall if the Church didn’t support housing and employment protections for the LGBT community. Well played, very well played.

      • Anonymous Reply

        Yeah…. BUT, they aren’t listing the residential properties with MLS. I think they’re trying to keep tight control of who gets those condos.

        • Anonymous Reply

          My guess is that the price tags alone will be enough to restrict who gets those condos. Undoubtedly, many have already been reserved (or purchased) by the richest of the rich as “conference weekend villas.” Wouldn’t be suprised to see names like Romney, Huntsman, Marriott, Fulton, etc. as owners of the properties.

  2. Elder Vader Reply

    I thought the discussion on asset protection was kind of interesting too.

    I also liked the part about dealing with dissidents. There has to be some path to assimilation. Exile isn’t working as well as it used to.

  3. Anonymous Reply

    Great interview, John. I’ve always loved the integrity, honesty, and candor of Grant Palmer. I’m still an active Mormon who keeps most of his thoughts to himself (though I have probably taken the proverbial “red pill” to use a Matrix analogy), so I admire the courage of someone like Grant.

    I thought the discussion on a future reformation within the Church was a very interesting topic. Though this has been discussed in previous podcasts to some degree, I would love to hear a panel discussion podcast dedicated to the topic (hint, hint). I too think we are beginning to see the groundwork layed for such a reformation (e.g., decrease in missionaries, slowed convert baptisms, effects of the internet, of a world-wide church, the media, etc.). Personally, I think we will continue our journey towards aligning with mainstream Christianity until, eventually, Joseph Smith becomes somewhat of an afterthought within the religion, and we find ouselves aligning closer with other Protestant denominations (similar to what the the Community of Christ has done perhaps). Though I doubt such evolution will take place within my lifetime (I’m 28), I think it is certainly in the far-distant future. Interesting to note that the last true theologian within the Quorum of the Twelve was Elder McConkie (I don’t think Elder Packer counts), who died over a quarter of a century ago. I think the continued focus on calling businessmen, attorneys, and organizational behaviorists within the Twelve will only accelerate the evolution to the mainstream. Thanks again to John and Grant for the podcast.

  4. Wes Cauthers Reply

    Great episode.

    I agree with pretty much everything Grant Palmer had to say about the Mormon Jesus and I really appreciated the distinction he made between the Mormon Jesus and the Jesus of the Bible which are clearly two completely different people. I loved when he encouraged people to see religious leaders through the eyes of Jesus as opposed to seeing Jesus through the eyes of religious leaders.

    I have a hard time believing that the COJCOLDS will “eventually mature” regarding apostasy because the whole thing is based on having the “additional truth” that no one else has.

    Great quote from John about the Book of Mormon: “It’s a blatant rip-off of 19th Century Christian views.”

    I appreciated what John said about trying to read the Bible during his crisis of faith and initially having no understanding of it whatsoever. He mentioned his experience growing up in Mormonism and as a missionary always reading the Bible as a proof text/quote mining source to defend Mormon doctrines and teachings. It wasn’t until he got rid of his King James Version and read a more current version like the NIV which enabled him to engage the book for what it was. He said it was was a completely different experience where the Bible came alive for him. This was very much my experience as well. The bottom line is that Mormonism does not offer even a remotely comprehensive understanding of the Bible but rather uses it as a proof text or quote mining source just like John said. It is also heavily downplayed and dismissed as inferior to Mormon scripture.

    In light of the reality described in the above paragraph, I think many people who leave Mormonism are so frustrated with the obviously fraudulent foundation of it that they’re just done with the whole thing and the Bible unfairly gets lumped in with the rest of Mormon scripture as completley bogus. In my experience in meeting and conversing with disaffected or exmormons, it seems rare for people to at least try and give the Bible a fair chance as John did. In many ways, I totally get why they don’t, but I think it is one of the more unfortunate byproducts that the COJCOLDS makes somewhat inevitable for people who leave.

    • Elder Vader Reply

      I remember being on my mission, and talking to an antagonistic evangelical christian about what baptism and the covenant we make with Christ means. I used the Stephen Robinson scripture citation list, and after a few minutes the person calmed down a little, but still had the look in his eye like I was lying to him. I did my best to explain that this is it man, this is what we believe about the atonement of Christ. Here, look at this scripture in the Book of Mormon etc… I felt frustrated, because you’d think evangelical christians, and mormons would/should get along with each other.

      After that I started to notice that a lot of LDS folks really did understand simple things like baptism differently than I did. I chalked it up to members not understanding their own doctrine. It never put me in a bind or anything – I could always reference ‘Believing Christ’ or cite the relevant chapter and verse. Over time I noticed different strains of larger disagreements of doctrine, history, etc…

      I remember talking to a friend who had been talking to a coworker. “He pointed out that there has been no archaeological evidence in favor of the Book of Mormon and he thought that my belief would just be devastated at that point.” I remember saying at the time “Nevertheless, the Book of Mormon has been very useful to me.” Whenever I would come across problem areas in my mind, I would always come back to the idea that Joseph Smith couldn’t have written the Book of Mormon. There’s too much in there, and it ties in too well with the Old and New Testament.

      Around this same time, I happened to read ‘Under The Banner of Heaven’, and I was surprised how much I liked the book, and how even-handed Krakauer was with mainstream LDS people. I recommended it to several LDS friends, and even read a couple of other books by the same author. But what really surprised me the most was learning that John Taylor had died in hiding, ready to go down with the ship, unwilling to give up polygamy. I couldn’t believe how well that information had been skirted around my whole life. The quote about how the Prophet will never lead the church astray, because God would kill him first. The subtext of that quote has to be “The way it happened with John Taylor” There’s this fascinating real story here, and it gets swept under the rug, and taken to the backyard and buried because it starts to peel apart this carefully pieced together faith narrative.

      But there was one thing in my mind that kept everything from completely falling apart in my mind. The Book of Mormon acted like this gigantic dam, that kept the flood of apostasy at bay in my mind. And there was me sitting there with my finger in the dike saying “Joseph Smith couldn’t have written this book.” Anytime I encountered some problem area I would just go back to the Book of Mormon in my mind.

      Then I encountered Grant Palmer. Grant Palmer provided the explanation of how Joseph Smith put the Book of Mormon together, and traced the foundational stories back in a plausible way, showing how it could have happened. The dike burst in my mind. There were other small events where the faith narrative had been peeled apart. But nothing so dramatic as listening to Grant Palmer’s mormon stories podcast, then reading his book. Humpty dumpty fell off the wall, and isn’t going to get put together again. At the time I thought my world was coming to an end, and the dam bursting in my mind would leave nothing but destruction in its wake. But at the end of it, I’m still fundamentally the same person I was before. I still care about the people in my congregation. I still love my wife and kids. I still want to do a good job at work. But now I’m in this fringy category within the church. I still see the good very clearly, but it isn’t the same anymore.

  5. Mike Tannehill Reply

    This guys focus seemed to be on a supposed misunderstanding of Christ, or lack of focus, by the Mormon people. I am incapable of understanding how someone who supposedly has been involved in teaching Church doctrine for over 40 years could somehow miss out on the doctrine of Christ and how it permeate’s every aspect of what we do.

    I have mentioned previously about how Christianity outside the church is anemic at best. Do you wish for an understanding of the pre-mortal Christ? It is found here. An understanding of Christ’s dealing with His people prior to His earthly ministry? It is found here. An understanding of why He came and the scope of what He did? It is found here. Do you want an undestanding of what He did with those spirits in prison between His death and resurrection? It is found here. Do you wish for an understanding of what a resurrection is and what it means? It is found here. Do you wish for an understanding regarding what He taught during His 40 days ministry as a resurrected being to the Apostles? It is found here. Do you wish for an understanding of what the Savior has done since His mortal ministry? It is found here.

    I can only assume Mr. Palmer is being purposefully ignorant and/or obtuse in claiming we somehow ignore Christ in our lives and teachings. He is everywhere. Perhaps what he fails to understand is that as we take upon ourselves the name of Christ when we participate in the ordinance of baptism we receive the Holy Ghost. This is He whom Christ promised to send to us as a teacher and instructor. Much of the gospel that we teach is instructive to us in what we need to do to keep this member of the Godhead with us. We in the Church have an understanding that the Godhead is three seperate beings. We worship the Father in the name of the Son by the power of The Holy Ghost. Perhaps we have less focus, to your perception Mr Palmer, on Christ in the Church because we have more to understand in regards to the entire Godhead and the fulness of the gospel as opposed to the broken and apostate teachings found in other so called christian faiths outside the one true church.

    • Elder Vader Reply

      Mike, this is exactly why some disaffected LDS gravitate toward being agnostic or atheist. Other religions are equally or more vulnerable to the deconstructing that collides with disaffected mormons.

      I stumbled into a conversation with a local protestant today who is all into his church experience. I had him walk me through some basic ‘salvation’ questions and it was major weak sauce. What happens to Chin, who grows up Buddhist in rural china and never hears of Jesus? Hell? Afraid so. Sorry bud, but you’re going to need to show me a stronger Jesus than the ineffectual wimp you’re talking about.

      I get what you’re saying here, and I don’t want to be like a defender of Grant Palmer or something. But you can continue your comment with a lot of things that discredit the church too. Do you want to find a propaganda machine pushing a narrative that turns out to break down at every turn? You can find it here. Do you want to find a place where literally every rule in the book has an exception with no coherent predictive power (God says thou shalt not kill, but elsewhere says thou shalt utterly destroy, thou shalt have one wife, thou shalt have many wives, be honest, lie for the lord etc…) You can find it here!

      Try getting up in gospel doctrine and suggesting that everybody read the new testament epistles using the NIV rather than the KJV, and see what happens. Think a bunch of people will go out and buy a copy and thank you for the suggestion later? Nah. That Brother Tannehill sure is an oddball isn’t he? That’s more like it.

      Quoting general authorities rather than Jesus. It happens. It would be easy to fix. You can easily imagine Elder Eyring getting up in conference and asking Latter Day Saints to refocus their minds on the words of Christ, even if it reduces the focus on what the general authorities have said in the past. It is also easy to imagine that conference talk becoming an instant classic along the lines of ETB’s ‘beware of pride’ talk.

    • Jason Reply

      Calling Grant Palmer “this guy” revealed your disdain for someone who disagrees with your viewpoint of the LDS Church. To your rhetorical points about Christ, it is the Mormon teaching that Christ is the Jehovah of the Old Testament that is hard to reconcile. How can it be that the very same person who told the woman who committed adultery to go her way and sin no more be the same person who killed 70,000 men, women, and children because David failed to take a census properly?

    • Anonymous Reply

      Mike,
      Your pompous rudeness (referring to this intelligent, highly respected, kind man as “This guy”, when you obviously know who he is, but won’t “lower” yourself to address him with common courtesy) is even a new low for you. Grant Palmer is heads above you both academically and as far as having a great deal of class and decency. Not too many people even take you seriously anymore and you have very little influence in your discussions and comments since you are like listening to a broken record. You are more of a joke than anything else on the discussion boards.

      As far as this podcast – it was another excellent one and I’d like to thank both Grant Palmer and John Larsen for taking the time to record it. I have Grant Palmer’s books and absolutely love them. His “Insider’s View” has become a staple book amongst members of the church searching for the honest truth behind our religion. Palmer presents the well organized information so well with an incredible amount of research to back it up.

      Thank you, Grant Palmer!

    • Buffalo Reply

      Most people would regard a lot of that additional doctrine on Jesus as pure fiction – and it is. But to be fair, so is the original stuff.

      While Mormons may have more doctrine on Jesus, they don’t talk about him nearly as much as conventional Christians. In other words, conventional Christians get a lot more mileage out of their “anemic” Jesus than Mormons get out of their “fortified” Jesus.

    • Tim Reply

      Mike, It’s interesting that the deep questions you long to hear an answer for happen to be the unique doctrines Mormonism happens to be prepared to answer. Also interesting that none of them hold answers which might transform someone into a life that displays the fruit of the Spirit.

      I’ll concede that Christianity can appear anemic, but that’s only true if you only expose yourself to Joel Osteen and Robert Schuler. Pick up some books by Dallas Willard, Richard Foster, JP Moreland, NT Wright or Tim Keller.

      I’m reading a book entitled “The Deep Things of God” by Fred Sanders. It’s entirely about experiencing the entire Trinity in all of our doctrines. (very similar to the last part of your comment). Pick it up. if you’re not willing to explore more than the low hanging fruit of Evangelicalism, you need to stop charging us with spiritual shallowness.

    • FWAnson Reply

      Mike you wrote, “I am incapable of understanding how someone who supposedly has been involved in teaching Church doctrine …could somehow miss out on the doctrine of Christ”

      To which, I can only ask in response, “Indeed Mike, how is it that YOU’VE missed it so utterly and completely?”

      • FWAnson Reply

        Well, I’ve waited patiently, but since you have failed to answer let me help you out Mike.

        The reason why you’ve missed it so utterly and completely is because you use eisgesis as a lifestyle. And your post is a SUPERB example of it.

        What “you guys” (those guys being Grant Palmer and John Larsen) did was read the Gospel narratives at face value sticking strictly to the text alone. The result is that a FAR different Jesus emerges than the Mormon Jesus. And of course if you want exacting details you need only re-listen to this podcast.

        And then, to demonstrate just how deeply entrenched you lifestyle of eisogesis is you include this “gem” in your post:

        “I have mentioned previously about how Christianity outside the church is anemic at best.”

        Really? And this is based on what exactly?
        It’s certainly not the facts.

        As David Stewart, a Mormon statistician, noted in his January 2, 2003 report on Church Growth:

        “The Assemblies of God are growing at approximately 10% per year, or over three times the growth rate of the LDS Church, while the Seventh-day Adventists report growth two to three times LDS rates at 5.6-8% per year.”

        “Protestant groups have been more successful than Latter-day Saints in mobilizing missionaries outside of the United States, especially in Asia. There are over 44,000 Protestant missionaries from India, with 60% serving domestically and 40% serving abroad. Within the next few years, India is expected to surpass the United States as the leading sender of Protestant and Evangelical missionaries! There are only 52 LDS missionaries serving in all of India, with only a fraction being native missionaries.”

        At one point Stewart goes so far as call the notion that the LDS Church is the fastest growing church a “pervasive myth.” In fact, he notes:

        “While the Church makes no claims about member activity rates and no official reports of LDS activity rates are published, the Encyclopedia of Mormonism notes, “Attendance at sacrament meeting varies substantially. Canada, the South Pacific, and the United States average between 40 percent and 50 percent. Europe and Africa average about 35 percent. Asia and Latin America have weekly attendance rates of about 25 percent…European LDS activity rates appear to have fallen well below the older 35% figure cited in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism.”

        “The average missionary in 1989 brought 9.1 people into the church, while in 2000 the average missionary brought 4.6 people into the church. When one accounts for actual activity and retention rates, with the great majority of LDS convert growth occurring in Latin America and other areas with low retention and only 20-25% of convert growth occurring in North America, it can be determined that of the 4.6 persons baptized by the average missionary each year, approximately 1.3 will remain active.”
        (source http://mrm.org/fastest-growing-church ; retrieved date of post)

        However, those are just numbers. When it comes to the actual church life faithful Latter-day Saints like Jana Riess – spring boarding off of an outside observer’s experience – have noted that when it comes to “anemic” the LdS Church makes a fine case study:

        “A couple of years ago I read the memoir Sundays in America by Suzanne Strempek Shea, a Massachusetts novelist. The author’s project was to attend a different religious service every weekend and write about her initial impressions.

        I felt that it was unfair to judge a faith tradition based on a single snapshot, when so much of religious life happens during the other days of the week. That said, what Shea concluded about Mormonism was spot on: the only thing non-Mormons needed to fear about Mormonism was that Mormons would bore the world’s population to death.

        Sometimes it takes an outsider to make us realize the truth about ourselves. This author nailed the fact that our sacrament meetings are beyond dull; they are stultifying. She certainly had no desire to return. And really, who could blame her?

        I’ve spent years trying to figure out why today’s sacrament meetings are typically an exercise in routinized tedium when worship was so decidedly different in the early years of the LDS Church.
        (source http://blog.beliefnet.com/flunkingsainthood/2010/07/five-reasons-why-mormon-church-meetings-are-the-dullest-youll-find-anywhere.html#ixzz1LEausTln ; retrieved date of post)

        And I would add that I have attended many LdS meetings in my life and found them to be unbelievably anemic and lifeless compared to the Charismatic and Evangelical meetings I’ve experienced. And that’s not just one guy’s opinion – that tends to be the general consensus of others who have experienced both. If you doubt me read “Sunday’s in America” yourself (http://www.amazon.com/Sundays-America-Yearlong-Search-Christian/dp/0807072249?tag=vglnk-c1006-20 )

        So I must ask: Have you experienced both?

        When I posed this question on Answerbag I discovered that while most Mormons are quick to judge other Churches the fact is that most of them have never actually experienced another Church first hand:
        http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1754426

        While the exact opposite was true of their Christian counterparts:
        http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1754438

        Eisogesis Mike, that’s why you don’t “get it”.
        Eisogesis Mike, that’s why you can’t see what’s so obvious to others.
        Eisogesis Mike, that’s why you’re blind to anything but “all things LdS Church”.

        Eisogesis.

        • FWAnson Reply

          And, of course, I had to typo on the key point of the post. DOH!

          It SHOULD have read: “The reason why you’ve missed it so utterly and completely is because you use EISOGESIS as a lifestyle.”

          Yes, a one letter typo – but in the most important sentence in the post. Very silly of me!

          My apologies for my lack of good proofreading skills!

        • FWAnson Reply

          BTW, back on the subject of “the anemic church” I wasn’t aware of this Rock Waterman blog yesterday but I am today: http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2011/05/reinventing-your-sundays.html

          Mike I would ask you to consider the content of this post (again from a believing LdS Church member like yourself) in your assessment of which church is truly anemic. I will leave you with a salient citation to ponder regaring Rock’s friend who was now attending Evangelical Church services rather than Mormon Chapel services:

          “Mike was one of the stalwarts of the ward. Why would he be ditching us to join the sectarians? I went over to his house later that day to find out. How was it, I asked, that he could abandon all the great truths of the restoration in order to take a step backward into mere protestantism?

          “Oh, I still believe in the church,” he replied, “I have a testimony of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and everything. None of that’s changed. I still consider myself LDS. ”

          This baffled me. “Then why,” I asked, “are you going to a church where they don’t share your beliefs? Why have you stopped attending the church you do believe in?

          “Well, the fact is, I’m tired of going to a church every Sunday where we never do any worshiping.”

          “What?!”

          “Well think about it, Rock. We show up every week and hear a couple of talks from the podium. The speakers are unaccustomed to speaking in public, so most of the time what they do is stand there and just read from some general authority’s conference talk from the Ensign. We sing our hymns half-heartedly just to get through them, yet we sing them at half the speed they were intended for, so they drag on forever. We’re given a reading of ward business, including the same announcements that have already been written in the program. Then we go to class for instruction on the same lessons we got last year; then we go to priesthood for more of the same. More announcements and another uninspired lesson somebody reads from the manual. Even our prayers are forced and too formal. When do we ever get around to praising and worshiping God?”

          That was ridiculous. Of course we worship God. “What about the sacrament?” I asked, “isn’t that important?”

          “Well yes, that’s meaningful, at least for those who aren’t busy trying to keep their kids occupied the entire time. Where I go to church now they have Communion, and guess what? The kids are all in the nursery so people can quietly meditate on Christ instead of being distracted because they’re forever shushing their children.”

          I still couldn’t wrap my head around why a believing latter-day Saint could be happier at a church that would try to convert him away from his own religious beliefs if they knew his secret.

          “Look Rock, when I go to church I should expect to feel something. I want it to be a joyful experience. I want to sing and shout hallelujah without embarrassment. I don’t want to waste my day just showing up and going through the motions like a bored Catholic. I want to feel the spirit of God at some point while I’m there.”

          I uttered some lame platitude about how he’ll only get as much out of church as he was willing to put into it, but I could see he was too far gone. I shook my head. Another good friend on the road to apostasy.”
          http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2011/05/reinventing-your-sundays.html

    • Kia Reply

      I was a little confused by Grants repeated assertion that the Church should focus more on Christ. Im in church every sunday and I hear Christ talked about all the time. Now, it may be the ‘Mormon” Christ but nonetheless he is talked about all the time. I teach NT sunday school and I talk about Christ constantly. While I dont often agree with Mike on this one he has a point.

    • sinclaire Reply

      you.make.me.want.to.scream. Mike. you are so condescending that *the* word needs a subtext to include how you address *us*. people like you are why i left the Church.

  6. Dan M. Reply

    I was very excited to see that you had interviewed Grant Palmer, and the interview definitely did not disappoint. This was a great conversation with a very admirable man. I enjoyed reading both of his books and I look forward to reading more of his work on his website. Thanks!

  7. True Order of Hair Reply

    I enjoyed the interview, especially Palmer’s comments on how the future of the church will depend on how it deals with its non-traditional members and its former members. This is something that almost every church has to go through if it survives long enough.

    Concerning Mike’s statement to the effect that Christianity outside the church is anemic: It seems to me that God pursues each individual, and He generally does it in different ways. There is no “one size fits all” faith. That includes Mike’s version of Mormonism, and my version of my non-Mormon faith. This is God’s mercy, and His providence. God bless ya, Mike.

  8. Audrey Reply

    I was so excited to see this interview in my itunes that my dog had an extra-early walk on Thursday. I very much enjoyed Grant Palmer’s interview on Mormon Stories a few years ago and was anxious to catch up with him. It was also good to be reminded of his book, “The Incomparable Jesus.” On Saturday I had this week’s RS lesson dropped in my lap (a fairly common occurence in my unit) and decided to focus on Easter. “The Incomparable Jesus” was an invaluable resource for my lesson.

    Over the years I have read most of the classics of “Institutional Mormon Church Deconstruction” and most of the books have been sold or passed along to others. The one volume I hold on to is Grant Palmer’s “Insider’s View of Mormon Origins.” That book, above all others, helped crystalize my new understanding as well as inspire my new spiritual focus. Thank you, Brother Palmer, for your scholarship and courage.

  9. Jake Reply

    Excellent podcast. I really enjoyed it and am impressed with Palmers courage. I don’t really accept Christ but I think he makes some excellent points. My favorite part was the bit about when you shut down a roller coaster you send the 15 yr old to answer all the questions.

  10. Anonymous Reply

    A good interview. Thanks, Grant, for your candidness.
    John – The interview was well done, but where were the hard questions?
    I kept waiting for a question along the lines of, “Why should I (or anyone else) care about Jesus Christ?”

    How is the Christ mythos any more reputable or reliable than the Mormon mythos?

  11. FWAnson Reply

    Absolutely fantastic interview! Not much to add except to say that Grant Palmer has absolutely nailed it once again.

    I’ve said it once, and I’ll said it again, if I could get every Mormon to read just one book and one book only, it would be Grant Palmer’s “The Incomparable Jesus”.
    http://www.amazon.com/Incomparable-Jesus-Grant-H-Palmer/dp/1589580923/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1304095559&sr=8-1

    And in the end, it must be said that it never fails to amaze me how whenever a TRUE prophet arises within the LdS Church they disfellowship, excommunicate, denounce and hound them. It reminds me of the words of Christ when He said:

    Matthew 23 (KJV)
    34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

    35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

    36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

  12. Bridget Donovan Reply

    The accusation that the Lord is not the center of our Sacrament Meetings is true. I surely think that the stultified worship in the Mormon church is hardly worthy of the Holy One of Israel. We scarcely have anyone talk about our Savior, let alone praise the Lord our God for his mighty saving hand. Without his redeeming grace, we would be nowhere and nothing. And yet go to an LDS church and you will find that praise to Lord is sadly lacking … especially the fact that the Lord is our Most High God, the Alpha and Omega, the Creator who redeemed the workmanship of his own hands. Instead, you’ll hear the Lord’s Father mentioned frequently. I’m just tired of it. If these people can’t know the God who fashioned them and gave them everlasting life at his own expense, they hardly qualify to call themselves followers of Christ.

  13. Swearing Elder Reply

    “Insider’s View” was a great read that helped me make that final clean break from the church. Grant Palmer did us all a great favor by writing that book. This podcast was great — one of my favorites.

    If he is available as a foster grandparent, I’ll gladly adopt him! 🙂

  14. Matthew Reply

    I love Grant Palmer. Love his book, love his interviews. What I will never understand is how a person can so correctly and incisively deconstruct Mormonism but not apply those same analytical tools to see that Christianity falls apart in the same way. Still, a am a big fan.

  15. sinclaire Reply

    wow…how fabulous was THIS??? great interview John….i loved that it was in his living room….wonderful points illustrated by Grant…i ordered his Origins book thru the ME Amazon 🙂 i dont consider myself a Christian but i love the idea of Christ and his teachings and never understood why Christ is rarely talked about in the Church…the notion of being saved is nonsense in the LDS church…its mocked. so i found Grants comments about the Mormon Jesus very interesting. i have learned more about Christ and the Bible since leaving the Church and i realize now that i never knew anything about Jesus at all….this interview will stay on my iPod and become a fave. thanks John!

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  17. ms Reply

    I’ve been doing a lot of research about the church and finding so many problems. It was so good to hear his story and get the support of what I’ve found and glad to know I’ve got a big back up for my research from someone bigger in the church than I was.  I would love my husband to read this and hear his story because he still believes it’s true but could never answer my questions but doesn’t want to look into my findings. It would be so nice to talk to him about this all and be on the same page. Thanks for being here and the books.

  18. Fred W. Anson Reply

    FYI, Grant was just interviewed on “The Ancient Paths” TV program.  I haven’t watched it yet but apparently he touched on and expanded on some of the same themes that he and John did in this podcast – it sounds interesting! 

    Here’s the link: http://www.ancientpaths.tv/2011/05/interview-with-grant-palmer.html

    Just thought that y’all would want to know.

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