Episode 139a: D&C 8 and 9 for Dummies Part 1

John Larsen is joined by Heather, Mike Tannehill, George and Brandt to discuss Doctrine and Covenants sections 8 and 9.

FAIR’s Tight vs. Loose Translation Page

The Joseph Smith Revelations: Text and Commentary

Early Mormonism and the Magic World View

Main image used with permission of Images of the Restoration.

Episode 139a

12 comments on “Episode 139a: D&C 8 and 9 for Dummies Part 1”

  1. Christophr Almond Reply

    I remember seeing a documentary about a psychologist, Raymond Moody, who  learned of some mirror, (or perhaps still pool of water) used by the…ancient Greeks or Romans that  people would stare into and eventually see and commune with deceased loved ones. The psychologist tried to replicate this himself using a mirror in a dark room and found that  a high percentage of mentally normal people who looked in it long enough, would experience remarkable visions. He then began using this theraputically to help people with the grieving process. I am not sure whether Moody believes anything supernatural is happening or not, but I certainly do not. I suspect,  like so many other religious rituals, it somehow hyjacks parts of the brain in way that produces what appears to be an actual supernatural phenomenon, while in fact being entirely natural. My point in bringing this up is that perhaps some of the weird, folk magic from early Church history actually ‘worked’. I would not be surprised if looking at a rock in a hat for long enough could put someone into a trance where they ‘see’ ancient America or hidden treasure or whatever (of course these visions would not usually be accurate, but they could honestly claim to be seeing such things).  I think we should consider the possibility that perhaps these people weren’t just foolish and superstitions, but were experiencing a real, mental phenomon, that their incomplete understanding of the world could only interpret as supernatural.

    • Richard of Norway Reply

      Thanks for your comment. I agree with you that it is likely the experiences these people had were very real to them, even if we could explain them away naturally with the knowledge available to us today.

      Btw, sorry to have moderated your comment but it was full of several line-breaks in strange areas that made it very hard to read. All I did was remove some of the line-breaks that occurred min-sentence. (I didn’t remove or change any words.)

  2. Adam Reply

    We finally have a believing mormon that helps balance the discussion! No offense to mike though.

  3. Ozpoof Reply

    When John called the pictures of Smith behind a curtain translating from the gold plates a complete fabrication, Mike disputed that assertion, then was forced to admit that this method of “translation” being taught as gospel to kids in the church is in fact was nowhere in any of the records. That’s when you have to sink the boot in John!! Don’t let them get away with brushing lying for the Lord off like it’s no big deal!

    When you said to Mike “so I give HER the priesthood” —classic.

  4. Mike Michaels Reply

    Guys, I tried.  I tried so hard to listen to this podcast.  Multiple times.  I love Mormon Expression podcasts.  But seriously – this episode’s discussion about things crazy enough to give Scientology a serious challenge.

    I was a practicing Mormon for 20 years.  I know the history you’re referring to.  You’re investing it with far more weight than it deserves.  Step back and pretend for a few minutes you don’t know anything about Mormonism.  While in this detached, objective state attempt to listen to this podcast.  You’ll find that it sounds like a bunch of crazy people making up really elaborate explanations to justify why a bullshit story is not bullshit.  None of it makes any rational sense whatsoever and none of it makes any supernatural sense either.

    I’m usually more diplomatic, tactful, and respectful of other peoples faith.  This podcast didn’t just cross the line into the incredulous – it stayed there.  There’s a reason why non-Mormons think Mormons are wacko and why even the GA’s stay away from subjects like this these days – because it just confirms that Mormons believe things that go beyond faith and into the land of idiocy.

    I’m hoping part 2 is more digestible.

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  6. cobble26 Reply

    I understand from my reading that there is no reliable evidence that anyone ever saw the supposed breast plate.  Lucy Smith claimed that she once felt it under a cloth.  Also, the Urrim and Thummim was not used for any part of the present Book of Mormon. If at all, it was only used for the first 116 pages that Martin Harris lost.  Moreover, I don’t believe there is any credible evidence that anyone ever saw the U and T.  In any event, it was not until 1833 when W.W. Phelps speculated that the interpreters mentioned in the B of M were the biblical U and T that Joseph then went back to change revelations to retroactively refer to the U and T and the Church started to refer to the U and T.  Sometimes members after 1833 incorrectly referred to the seer stone that Joseph used as the U and T.

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