Episode 16: In the Shadow of the Temple

In this episode, we speak with Dennis and Karen, the producers of the In the Shadow of the Temple documentary. This film, which will be released at the ex-Mormon conference on Oct 10th 2009, explores the emotional experience of several individuals who leave the Church and the journey they follow. The non-Mormon producers bring a unique eye to this tragic phenomena.

Their Blog: http://shadowofthetemple.blogspot.com/
Their Website: http://www.intheshadowofthetemple.com/

Episode 16

121 comments on “Episode 16: In the Shadow of the Temple”

  1. Devin Reply

    My favourite one yet! Thank you.

    Michelle, if you are reading this at all… I could feel your pain. You are a beautiful person, inside and out. I look forward to seeing you again.

  2. Devin Reply

    My favourite one yet! Thank you.

    Michelle, if you are reading this at all… I could feel your pain. You are a beautiful person, inside and out. I look forward to seeing you again.

  3. Mike Reply

    The movie is actually very watchable. I personally would not recommend it to the average church member, but the quality of the thing as far as the look and flow of it are concerned, it was very nice. As mel Brooks would say, “….it’s in glorious black and white!”

    Well as a panelist I made sure to watch it before I participated, and had some topics I wanted to discuss. Well the podcast starts and it turns out that the filmakers are not even members, they are never-mo’s! I was expecting some bitter ex-members, but these guys were only interested in making a film about people who left the church. I never did understand why they did it, they say they picked the topic in a semi random way. So I spent most of the podcast trying to figure out how I could change my questions to fit their perspective, while trying to follow what they are saying so I could keep up with the conversation.

    The topics covered by the handwringing whiners in the video were homosexuality, adultery, polygamy, can’t attend a temple wedding, and garments and temple practices. Also theres some discussion on feeling inadequacy, that they weren’t measuring up to church standards.

    As far as I’m concerned, if your unhappy in the church its because your doing it wrong. Homosexuality is self explanatory, it a perversion and no one is going to support that. Adultery is also pretty self explanatory. The girl in the film couldent understand the church court system, and didnt understand what the big deal was. Apparently sleeping with multiple partners while seperated from your husband is no big deal in her home country.

    I found it amusing when the ex-mo mom was all upset that she coulden’t attend the temple wedding.

    The part that upset me was the woman who didnt understand the temple and didnt want to wear the garment. That seems to me to be an issue with ignorance of doctrine. She obviously hadnt studied and really lacked understanding. I think there were alot of other issues involved, and that the temple issue was just the little piece of the iceberg peeking out of the surface of the water.

    Alot of the panelists were really drawn in by her statement “I am more than a mormon, and my husband couldent look past that. I thought he loved me for me, and I’m more than just a mormon.” Theres alot to think about in that statement. I am misquoting it, but it was something close to that.

    I always get bugged when I hear ex-mo’s state that they had a sense of freedom after they left the church. Anytime you ditch responsibility you get a false sense of freedom.

  4. Mike Reply

    The movie is actually very watchable. I personally would not recommend it to the average church member, but the quality of the thing as far as the look and flow of it are concerned, it was very nice. As mel Brooks would say, “….it’s in glorious black and white!”

    Well as a panelist I made sure to watch it before I participated, and had some topics I wanted to discuss. Well the podcast starts and it turns out that the filmakers are not even members, they are never-mo’s! I was expecting some bitter ex-members, but these guys were only interested in making a film about people who left the church. I never did understand why they did it, they say they picked the topic in a semi random way. So I spent most of the podcast trying to figure out how I could change my questions to fit their perspective, while trying to follow what they are saying so I could keep up with the conversation.

    The topics covered by the handwringing whiners in the video were homosexuality, adultery, polygamy, can’t attend a temple wedding, and garments and temple practices. Also theres some discussion on feeling inadequacy, that they weren’t measuring up to church standards.

    As far as I’m concerned, if your unhappy in the church its because your doing it wrong. Homosexuality is self explanatory, it a perversion and no one is going to support that. Adultery is also pretty self explanatory. The girl in the film couldent understand the church court system, and didnt understand what the big deal was. Apparently sleeping with multiple partners while seperated from your husband is no big deal in her home country.

    I found it amusing when the ex-mo mom was all upset that she coulden’t attend the temple wedding.

    The part that upset me was the woman who didnt understand the temple and didnt want to wear the garment. That seems to me to be an issue with ignorance of doctrine. She obviously hadnt studied and really lacked understanding. I think there were alot of other issues involved, and that the temple issue was just the little piece of the iceberg peeking out of the surface of the water.

    Alot of the panelists were really drawn in by her statement “I am more than a mormon, and my husband couldent look past that. I thought he loved me for me, and I’m more than just a mormon.” Theres alot to think about in that statement. I am misquoting it, but it was something close to that.

    I always get bugged when I hear ex-mo’s state that they had a sense of freedom after they left the church. Anytime you ditch responsibility you get a false sense of freedom.

  5. Dennis Reply

    I just listened, but I obviously haven’t seen the movie yet. For the life of me I can’t understand this statement from Mike above:

    “I found it amusing when the ex-mo mom was all upset that she coulden’t attend the temple wedding.”

    WOW! Amusing? Really?

    Like I said, I haven’t seen the movie but from the podcast it seems like the point was to help others develop compassion for a unique human dilemma. I can’t fathom what is amusing about a mother being excluded from her child’s wedding. Amusing? Really?

    How in any way shape of form does that express the sentiment of “Honor thy Mother and Father” to exclude a Mother from her child’s wedding and then laugh about it?

    This dude seems like a classic example of what the ex-Mormons are reacting to.

    Amusing? Really?

  6. Dennis Reply

    I just listened, but I obviously haven’t seen the movie yet. For the life of me I can’t understand this statement from Mike above:

    “I found it amusing when the ex-mo mom was all upset that she coulden’t attend the temple wedding.”

    WOW! Amusing? Really?

    Like I said, I haven’t seen the movie but from the podcast it seems like the point was to help others develop compassion for a unique human dilemma. I can’t fathom what is amusing about a mother being excluded from her child’s wedding. Amusing? Really?

    How in any way shape of form does that express the sentiment of “Honor thy Mother and Father” to exclude a Mother from her child’s wedding and then laugh about it?

    This dude seems like a classic example of what the ex-Mormons are reacting to.

    Amusing? Really?

  7. Devin Reply

    “As far as I’m concerned, if your unhappy in the church its because your doing it wrong.”

    I believe that the church has a formula for happiness that works for some but doesn’t work for others. This statement shows that you know nothing about happiness and the research that is around this subject. It shows a narrow mindedness of thought and an inability to understand – which in my opinion is one of the things ex-Mormons are trying to have their families do – try to step in their shoes for one moment.

    “Homosexuality is self explanatory, it a perversion and no one is going to support that.”

    REALLY – oh I’m so glad that I live in Canada. I feel so badly for my American friends who have to go through this shit of injustice. Again, this statement shows a lack of understanding about morality. The church once taught the monogamy was a perversion and now teaches that polygamy is a sin (although I don’t think they can say that it is a perversion given that it is still on the books). There is a reason that you don’t want to sleep with your sister, and it has nothing to do with religion or the Bible.

    “I found it amusing when the ex-mo mom was all upset that she coulden’t attend the temple wedding.”

    How very kind of you. Have you had to ask loved ones not to be at one of your most important days? Granted – I never want to step foot in a Mormon building ever again as they have made it clear that “Visitors Welcome” really only means a certain kind of visitor is allowed. This statement alone makes me so glad that I don’t have to ever say I’m a Mormon to anyone!

    “Anytime you ditch responsibility you get a false sense of freedom.”

    Oh come on! REALLY?! I suppose I wouldn’t say it was freedom. I would say that I have an increased ability to do good in the world, have happiness in my home, make an impact on my community, and have my children wake up happy everyday. I suppose that might sound a little like freedom when within the paradigm of the church these good things were suppressed.

  8. Devin Reply

    “As far as I’m concerned, if your unhappy in the church its because your doing it wrong.”

    I believe that the church has a formula for happiness that works for some but doesn’t work for others. This statement shows that you know nothing about happiness and the research that is around this subject. It shows a narrow mindedness of thought and an inability to understand – which in my opinion is one of the things ex-Mormons are trying to have their families do – try to step in their shoes for one moment.

    “Homosexuality is self explanatory, it a perversion and no one is going to support that.”

    REALLY – oh I’m so glad that I live in Canada. I feel so badly for my American friends who have to go through this shit of injustice. Again, this statement shows a lack of understanding about morality. The church once taught the monogamy was a perversion and now teaches that polygamy is a sin (although I don’t think they can say that it is a perversion given that it is still on the books). There is a reason that you don’t want to sleep with your sister, and it has nothing to do with religion or the Bible.

    “I found it amusing when the ex-mo mom was all upset that she coulden’t attend the temple wedding.”

    How very kind of you. Have you had to ask loved ones not to be at one of your most important days? Granted – I never want to step foot in a Mormon building ever again as they have made it clear that “Visitors Welcome” really only means a certain kind of visitor is allowed. This statement alone makes me so glad that I don’t have to ever say I’m a Mormon to anyone!

    “Anytime you ditch responsibility you get a false sense of freedom.”

    Oh come on! REALLY?! I suppose I wouldn’t say it was freedom. I would say that I have an increased ability to do good in the world, have happiness in my home, make an impact on my community, and have my children wake up happy everyday. I suppose that might sound a little like freedom when within the paradigm of the church these good things were suppressed.

  9. Walt Reply

    I too have not seen the movie, but can’t wait to. What I am appalled by is the condescending drivel posted above by Mike. Wow, just wow.

  10. Walt Reply

    I too have not seen the movie, but can’t wait to. What I am appalled by is the condescending drivel posted above by Mike. Wow, just wow.

  11. D. Reply

    John,
    After hearing Mike’s comments in the podcast, and reading his posts on MormonDiscussions, I think he weakens your podcasts. If you need to have the TBM side represented, can you find someone more suitable?
    Then again, perhaps he is perfect to represent the uninformed and judgmental TBMs.

  12. D. Reply

    John,
    After hearing Mike’s comments in the podcast, and reading his posts on MormonDiscussions, I think he weakens your podcasts. If you need to have the TBM side represented, can you find someone more suitable?
    Then again, perhaps he is perfect to represent the uninformed and judgmental TBMs.

  13. Tom Reply

    John,

    Very nice job editing the podcast! 🙂 I also loved the movie clips you put in the podcast. Big thumbs up.

    To Dennis and Karen, I’m truly amazed at your motivation to want to do a documentary like this. I think for your first attempt at movie making, I thought you did a stand up job.

    My only complaint about this podcast is that there were way to many participants involved. But the outcome of this podcast still turned out positive and I was very grateful to have been a small part of it.

    -Tom

  14. Tom Reply

    John,

    Very nice job editing the podcast! 🙂 I also loved the movie clips you put in the podcast. Big thumbs up.

    To Dennis and Karen, I’m truly amazed at your motivation to want to do a documentary like this. I think for your first attempt at movie making, I thought you did a stand up job.

    My only complaint about this podcast is that there were way to many participants involved. But the outcome of this podcast still turned out positive and I was very grateful to have been a small part of it.

    -Tom

  15. Tom Reply

    Mike, Mike, Mike,

    Quote:
    The movie is actually very watchable. I personally would not recommend it to the average church member, but the quality of the thing as far as the look and flow of it are concerned, it was very nice. As mel Brooks was say, “….it’s in glorious black and white!”

    -The only reason it was in Black and White is because Merc ripped the preview in greyscale. The actual movie, I imagine, is in color. I know the clips on their blog are in color.

    Quote:
    The topics covered by the handwringing whiners in the video were homosexuality, adultery, polygamy, can’t attend a temple wedding, and garments and temple practices. Also theres some discussion on feeling inadequacy, that they werent measuring up to church standards.

    -Handwringing whiners? Why do you feel the need to slam people who in all intents and purposes were completely genuine and willing to put themselves out there. I’m curious if you would call them whiners to their faces.

    Quote:
    As far as I’m concerned, if your unhappy in the church its because your doing it wrong.

    -You don’t think that there may be other factors involved? What if someone is unhappy because of situations stemming from a certain responsibility or calling in the church? Do you think they are unhappy because they aren’t serving in their callings the way they should? Seems that your statement is a bit over generalized.

    Quote:
    Homosexuality is self explanatory, it a perversion and no one is going to support that.

    -A perversion? I’m assuming that you take the stance that Homosexuality is a choice rather than something biological or genetic. And if that is the case, I’m really not even sure where to begin.

    Quote:
    Adultery is also pretty self explanatory. The girl in the film couldent understand the church court system, and didnt understand what the big deal was. Apparently sleeping with multiple partners while seperated from your husband is no big deal in her home country.

    -You don’t find it a troublesome practice to publicly humiliate someone of a past transgression? I personally have sat in disciplinary courts (on the council side) and have been disgusted with the process. In some cases it can help those facing the court, but for many, it is emotionally devastating and can be very extremely embarrassing to the transgressor.

    Quote:
    I found it amusing when the ex-mo mom was all upset that she couldent attend the temple wedding.

    -Do you also find it humorous when a family is forced apart from other religious practices? Do you laugh out loud when one spouse is Jewish and the other Mormon and the Jewish spouse is prevented from participating in many LDS ordinances that their child may be involved in? Hilarious.

    Quote:
    The part that upset me was the woman who didnt understand the temple and didnt want to wear the garment. That seems to me to be an issue with ignorance of doctrine. She obviously hadnt studied and really lacked understanding. I think there were alot of other issues involved, and that the temple issue was just the little piece of the iceberg peeking out of the surface of the water.

    -When I first went through the temple I wasn’t told about anything, including garments and I did go through a temple prep class as well (Those are completely uninformative, by the way). So it was a big shock to me that I was now required to wear these for the rest of my life. I guess you had a completely different experience than I did, so its difficult for you to relate or understand.

    Quote:
    I always get bugged when I hear ex-mo’s state that they had a sense of freedom after they left the church. Anytime you ditch responsibility you get a false sense of freedom.

    -Are you saying that when ex-mo’s leave the church, they experience freedom because they are ditching responsibility? I disagree. I haven’t left the church, but I base my opinion off many interactions I have had with people who have left the church.

    It’s good to have you a part of the podcast Mike, but I may need to get back on my ulcer meds if you keep this up. 🙂

  16. Tom Reply

    Mike, Mike, Mike,

    Quote:
    The movie is actually very watchable. I personally would not recommend it to the average church member, but the quality of the thing as far as the look and flow of it are concerned, it was very nice. As mel Brooks was say, “….it’s in glorious black and white!”

    -The only reason it was in Black and White is because Merc ripped the preview in greyscale. The actual movie, I imagine, is in color. I know the clips on their blog are in color.

    Quote:
    The topics covered by the handwringing whiners in the video were homosexuality, adultery, polygamy, can’t attend a temple wedding, and garments and temple practices. Also theres some discussion on feeling inadequacy, that they werent measuring up to church standards.

    -Handwringing whiners? Why do you feel the need to slam people who in all intents and purposes were completely genuine and willing to put themselves out there. I’m curious if you would call them whiners to their faces.

    Quote:
    As far as I’m concerned, if your unhappy in the church its because your doing it wrong.

    -You don’t think that there may be other factors involved? What if someone is unhappy because of situations stemming from a certain responsibility or calling in the church? Do you think they are unhappy because they aren’t serving in their callings the way they should? Seems that your statement is a bit over generalized.

    Quote:
    Homosexuality is self explanatory, it a perversion and no one is going to support that.

    -A perversion? I’m assuming that you take the stance that Homosexuality is a choice rather than something biological or genetic. And if that is the case, I’m really not even sure where to begin.

    Quote:
    Adultery is also pretty self explanatory. The girl in the film couldent understand the church court system, and didnt understand what the big deal was. Apparently sleeping with multiple partners while seperated from your husband is no big deal in her home country.

    -You don’t find it a troublesome practice to publicly humiliate someone of a past transgression? I personally have sat in disciplinary courts (on the council side) and have been disgusted with the process. In some cases it can help those facing the court, but for many, it is emotionally devastating and can be very extremely embarrassing to the transgressor.

    Quote:
    I found it amusing when the ex-mo mom was all upset that she couldent attend the temple wedding.

    -Do you also find it humorous when a family is forced apart from other religious practices? Do you laugh out loud when one spouse is Jewish and the other Mormon and the Jewish spouse is prevented from participating in many LDS ordinances that their child may be involved in? Hilarious.

    Quote:
    The part that upset me was the woman who didnt understand the temple and didnt want to wear the garment. That seems to me to be an issue with ignorance of doctrine. She obviously hadnt studied and really lacked understanding. I think there were alot of other issues involved, and that the temple issue was just the little piece of the iceberg peeking out of the surface of the water.

    -When I first went through the temple I wasn’t told about anything, including garments and I did go through a temple prep class as well (Those are completely uninformative, by the way). So it was a big shock to me that I was now required to wear these for the rest of my life. I guess you had a completely different experience than I did, so its difficult for you to relate or understand.

    Quote:
    I always get bugged when I hear ex-mo’s state that they had a sense of freedom after they left the church. Anytime you ditch responsibility you get a false sense of freedom.

    -Are you saying that when ex-mo’s leave the church, they experience freedom because they are ditching responsibility? I disagree. I haven’t left the church, but I base my opinion off many interactions I have had with people who have left the church.

    It’s good to have you a part of the podcast Mike, but I may need to get back on my ulcer meds if you keep this up. 🙂

  17. ed42 Reply

    Mike,

    My children, even though they had temple recommends (albeit baptisms for the dead), were not allowed to attend their oldest siblings temple marriage. That rips a (faithful) family apart. Do you find that funny?

  18. ed42 Reply

    Mike,

    My children, even though they had temple recommends (albeit baptisms for the dead), were not allowed to attend their oldest siblings temple marriage. That rips a (faithful) family apart. Do you find that funny?

  19. Nyal Reply

    Mike is a funny sort. He is violently opposed to homosexuality and will lend some spice to the podcast. My version was in color.

  20. Nyal Reply

    Mike is a funny sort. He is violently opposed to homosexuality and will lend some spice to the podcast. My version was in color.

  21. John Reply

    D.:

    I appreciate you feedback.

    First, I applaud Mike for even considering coming on the podcast and for voicing his opinion. It takes a lot of courage to stand up, sometimes as the lonely voice, to defend what you believe. Many LDS people would never consider engaging the skeptics and non-believers.

    Mike holds a lot of opinions that I do not agree with. However, he represents a more conservative view of the Church that is commonly held. He is also articulate in voicing those opinions and saying things that might be unpopular. I think that goes to the very spirit of what we are trying to accomplish here.

    In the podcast recording, Mike was complementary and polite. He said nothing objectionable. His ideas that he expressed above–which by the way I encourage him to post here–are ideas that would not be foreign in most chapels.

    As long as Mike remains polite and respectful, I encourage his further participation.

    D., you are an old friend and if you want to talk about it some more I would be happy to give you a call.

    John

  22. John Reply

    D.:

    I appreciate you feedback.

    First, I applaud Mike for even considering coming on the podcast and for voicing his opinion. It takes a lot of courage to stand up, sometimes as the lonely voice, to defend what you believe. Many LDS people would never consider engaging the skeptics and non-believers.

    Mike holds a lot of opinions that I do not agree with. However, he represents a more conservative view of the Church that is commonly held. He is also articulate in voicing those opinions and saying things that might be unpopular. I think that goes to the very spirit of what we are trying to accomplish here.

    In the podcast recording, Mike was complementary and polite. He said nothing objectionable. His ideas that he expressed above–which by the way I encourage him to post here–are ideas that would not be foreign in most chapels.

    As long as Mike remains polite and respectful, I encourage his further participation.

    D., you are an old friend and if you want to talk about it some more I would be happy to give you a call.

    John

  23. Mike Reply

    Some further clarity. The mother that was complaining about not being able to go to the temple is someone who understands perfectly well why she cant, and yet shes going to get all twisted up over being unable to attend. Shes dropped her beliefs, and then does not want to be left out of the proceedings. I feel no pity for her.

    In regards to beign happy in the church…
    I think that some people have a problem in finding their balance point in the gospel. The gospel is intended to bring growth and joy into your life. Understandably growth is sometimes difficult, that’s why you have so many kids who hate going to school, but if we don’t spend our time chipping away at the things the Holy Ghost asks us to change in our life we will never grow any closer to Christ.

    Homosexuality is a sexual perversion and represents deviant behavior. There is no way to justify it. These people are not born this way any more than a person with any other fetish is born the way they are. You have seen an increase in this behavior over the last few decades as pornography and pop psychology have flooded the media at an unprecedented rate. Many people succumb to this false view of the world, and now suffer because they have been blinded.

  24. Mike Reply

    Some further clarity. The mother that was complaining about not being able to go to the temple is someone who understands perfectly well why she cant, and yet shes going to get all twisted up over being unable to attend. Shes dropped her beliefs, and then does not want to be left out of the proceedings. I feel no pity for her.

    In regards to beign happy in the church…
    I think that some people have a problem in finding their balance point in the gospel. The gospel is intended to bring growth and joy into your life. Understandably growth is sometimes difficult, that’s why you have so many kids who hate going to school, but if we don’t spend our time chipping away at the things the Holy Ghost asks us to change in our life we will never grow any closer to Christ.

    Homosexuality is a sexual perversion and represents deviant behavior. There is no way to justify it. These people are not born this way any more than a person with any other fetish is born the way they are. You have seen an increase in this behavior over the last few decades as pornography and pop psychology have flooded the media at an unprecedented rate. Many people succumb to this false view of the world, and now suffer because they have been blinded.

  25. Nyal Reply

    Porn causes the gay?

    Next you’ll be telling me that burping the worm can cause the gay!

  26. Nyal Reply

    Porn causes the gay?

    Next you’ll be telling me that burping the worm can cause the gay!

  27. InvisibleChurch Reply

    Quote: <>

    Well then, I truly hope it never happens to you, becasue it’s very tough. Imagine how you would feel if one of your kids rejected the church, then consider that the woman in the film feels the same way.

    Compassion is a big part of being a Christian.

  28. InvisibleChurch Reply

    Quote: <>

    Well then, I truly hope it never happens to you, becasue it’s very tough. Imagine how you would feel if one of your kids rejected the church, then consider that the woman in the film feels the same way.

    Compassion is a big part of being a Christian.

  29. InvisibleChurch Reply

    My post above is referring to Mike’s comments about the woman who is upset about not being able to attend her kid’s wedding. The quote I cut and pasted did not show up.

  30. InvisibleChurch Reply

    My post above is referring to Mike’s comments about the woman who is upset about not being able to attend her kid’s wedding. The quote I cut and pasted did not show up.

  31. shelly Reply

    well then Mike, by the same token, sex causes prostitution, just in the same way that alcohol causes alcoholism, or eating causing obesity. We should all abstain from these things, don’t you think?

  32. shelly Reply

    well then Mike, by the same token, sex causes prostitution, just in the same way that alcohol causes alcoholism, or eating causing obesity. We should all abstain from these things, don’t you think?

  33. shelly Reply

    just because the woman in the film understands why she is being excluded from the wedding does not follow that she is to “shut up” about it. I understand why their is racism in America even up until today, I understand why women are raped, I understand why their is so much poverty, suffering, cancer, pollution etc in the world today. Because I understand it doesn’t mean that I have to accept it and stand idly by while the abuse continues. Because I understand that it is your policy to abuse gives me a moral responsibility to disabuse you of your erroneous beliefs.

  34. shelly Reply

    just because the woman in the film understands why she is being excluded from the wedding does not follow that she is to “shut up” about it. I understand why their is racism in America even up until today, I understand why women are raped, I understand why their is so much poverty, suffering, cancer, pollution etc in the world today. Because I understand it doesn’t mean that I have to accept it and stand idly by while the abuse continues. Because I understand that it is your policy to abuse gives me a moral responsibility to disabuse you of your erroneous beliefs.

    • Mike Reply

      On pornography causing homosexuality

      I just want to clarify something. When I stated that the spread of pornography had something to do with homosexuality I meant it in the sense that the viewing of this material has created a moral corruption in society as a whole. Boundries have corroded, and acceptance of the degenerate has become commonplace.

      Example: In the realm of teenage sexuality, it is currently not a big deal for a couple to participate in oral sex. This is merely one symptom.

      Another symptom is the new acceptance of homosexuality. it is currently prsented in the media as an acceptable alternate lifestyle that is misunderstood by bigots. that is a lie, and it is being swallowed hook line and sinker by a compliant and degradated society.

      Where is a virtuous woman? For her price is far above rubies.

  35. Dennis Reply

    Imagine my amazement that the Mike writing here was the same guy I shared the panel with the next day! I realized it only at the end of recording the podcast when John said something to you about your post here. I have to say, Mike, that you come across as a totally different person in writing. It seems just like those soft-spoken, gentle people who get in a car and become raging terrors.

    Anyway, I hope you stick around because like John said, it takes a pair for an active believing member to join a discussion like this. I think John’s goal is to present both sides of the argument and that’s a valid objective. I respect your right to hold those opinions.

    That said, I think most of what you expressed in writing are canned, without foundation and illogical for the most part. It will help your case to refrain from name-calling (“whiners”), baseless absolutes (“no one is going to support that”) and false assumptions (“That seems to me to be an issue with ignorance of doctrine”).

    A far more powerful defense is to try and understand the opposing viewpoint and then display the relevant facts that contradict their argument. You failed to do that with each point you tried to make and you ended up providing a prime example of the very reason leaving causes so much bad blood…and I think you unwittingly became a caricature of the finger-pointing, inflexible Mormon…even when you tried to provide clarity. That’s the only thing that became clearer. It’s interest, for example, that your former prophet declared that he didn’t know the why’s or how’s of homosexuality and yet you apparently do. All I can say is that I sure hope that no child or grandchild of yours ever comes out to you! Wow – the poor thing(hypothetically)!

    I didn’t think you came across that way on air even though we disagreed then too.

    All the best,
    Dennis

  36. Dennis Reply

    Imagine my amazement that the Mike writing here was the same guy I shared the panel with the next day! I realized it only at the end of recording the podcast when John said something to you about your post here. I have to say, Mike, that you come across as a totally different person in writing. It seems just like those soft-spoken, gentle people who get in a car and become raging terrors.

    Anyway, I hope you stick around because like John said, it takes a pair for an active believing member to join a discussion like this. I think John’s goal is to present both sides of the argument and that’s a valid objective. I respect your right to hold those opinions.

    That said, I think most of what you expressed in writing are canned, without foundation and illogical for the most part. It will help your case to refrain from name-calling (“whiners”), baseless absolutes (“no one is going to support that”) and false assumptions (“That seems to me to be an issue with ignorance of doctrine”).

    A far more powerful defense is to try and understand the opposing viewpoint and then display the relevant facts that contradict their argument. You failed to do that with each point you tried to make and you ended up providing a prime example of the very reason leaving causes so much bad blood…and I think you unwittingly became a caricature of the finger-pointing, inflexible Mormon…even when you tried to provide clarity. That’s the only thing that became clearer. It’s interest, for example, that your former prophet declared that he didn’t know the why’s or how’s of homosexuality and yet you apparently do. All I can say is that I sure hope that no child or grandchild of yours ever comes out to you! Wow – the poor thing(hypothetically)!

    I didn’t think you came across that way on air even though we disagreed then too.

    All the best,
    Dennis

    • Jeff Ricks Reply

      Mike, I’d appreciate more your opinions more if you’d frame them as what they are, opinions, instead of facts. Everything you state as fact is just an opinion, and you know what Mike? Your opinion has no more weight or value than anyone else’s, including the 99.8% of the people in the world who aren’t Mormons.

      On the homepage of PostMormon.org is this statement “We feel that arrogance attends the illusion of ‘knowing the truth.'” Mike, I’m afraid you’re living proof of that.

  37. Mike Reply

    On pornography causing homosexuality

    I just want to clarify something. When I stated that the spread of pornography had something to do with homosexuality I meant it in the sense that the viewing of this material has created a moral corruption in society as a whole. Boundries have corroded, and acceptance of the degenerate has become commonplace.

    Example: In the realm of teenage sexuality, it is currently not a big deal for a couple to participate in oral sex. This is merely one symptom.

    Another symptom is the new acceptance of homosexuality. it is currently prsented in the media as an acceptable alternate lifestyle that is misunderstood by bigots. that is a lie, and it is being swallowed hook line and sinker by a compliant and degradated society.

    Where is a virtuous woman? For her price is far above rubies.

  38. shelly Reply

    I don’t remember that ancient societies, or in the 1800’s they had television or porn movies, yet that didn’t stop those people from sexually exploiting women and children, in the name of God or some other. I don’t remember there being video games filled with violence and gore, or television programs promoting slavery, but yet these things happened. Think it through Mike, follow your thoughts through to a logical conclusion. Connect the dots and quit repeating stuff you’ve heard all your life. I have a question for you, when God destroyed a heterosexual society in the bible or BOM, was it because that society was heterosexual or was it because in their pursuit of sexual pleasure they had pushed the envelope and become “leud?” You need a serious paradigm shift, and it may not happen now but hopefully you will grow up and the fog will lift. And mike I am so sorry but you asked for this one, the virtuous women are married to TBM’s and are sexually repressed. They equate virtue solely with “holding out” before and after marriage and use it as a weapon against you. They feel dirty if too much pleasure is derived from the sexual experience and so stifle their desires within marriage. It’s a real conundrum for them and a complete let down for their partners and perhaps this might explain why your men run to the internet, seeking that which “a virtuous woman whose price is worth more than rubies”, cannot give them. Now there’s a cause and effect relationship for you that might help to shift your paradigm.

  39. shelly Reply

    I don’t remember that ancient societies, or in the 1800’s they had television or porn movies, yet that didn’t stop those people from sexually exploiting women and children, in the name of God or some other. I don’t remember there being video games filled with violence and gore, or television programs promoting slavery, but yet these things happened. Think it through Mike, follow your thoughts through to a logical conclusion. Connect the dots and quit repeating stuff you’ve heard all your life. I have a question for you, when God destroyed a heterosexual society in the bible or BOM, was it because that society was heterosexual or was it because in their pursuit of sexual pleasure they had pushed the envelope and become “leud?” You need a serious paradigm shift, and it may not happen now but hopefully you will grow up and the fog will lift. And mike I am so sorry but you asked for this one, the virtuous women are married to TBM’s and are sexually repressed. They equate virtue solely with “holding out” before and after marriage and use it as a weapon against you. They feel dirty if too much pleasure is derived from the sexual experience and so stifle their desires within marriage. It’s a real conundrum for them and a complete let down for their partners and perhaps this might explain why your men run to the internet, seeking that which “a virtuous woman whose price is worth more than rubies”, cannot give them. Now there’s a cause and effect relationship for you that might help to shift your paradigm.

  40. Nyal Reply

    Any child of Mike’s that turns out to be gay better be good at sleeping in cardboard boxes and turning tricks. Right, Mike?

  41. Nyal Reply

    Any child of Mike’s that turns out to be gay better be good at sleeping in cardboard boxes and turning tricks. Right, Mike?

  42. Swearing Elder Reply

    I can’t wait to see the film. Based on what I heard in this interview, it sounds like it is excellent.

    I’m sure the filmmakers limited themselves to the Western U.S. and Canada for financial reasons. However, the “shadow of the temple” reaches far and wide. They could have gone anywhere in the U.S. or world to capture some of these same stories they describe.

  43. Swearing Elder Reply

    I can’t wait to see the film. Based on what I heard in this interview, it sounds like it is excellent.

    I’m sure the filmmakers limited themselves to the Western U.S. and Canada for financial reasons. However, the “shadow of the temple” reaches far and wide. They could have gone anywhere in the U.S. or world to capture some of these same stories they describe.

  44. Kathleen Reply

    Wow, just WOW, at the comments from Mike.
    But in the long run, thank GAWD he posted them here. He is the shining example of what we, as Exmo’s, have gone through. The literal verbal abuse, let alone emotional, from destructive narrow minded treatment like his.
    My deepest love goes out to him and the many many Mormons like him. What a sad shallow life they have. And I do mean shallow. I know many Mormons like them who actually laugh at the fact that someone can’t see their child be married. I have family who treat/treated me the same way. Either pay and obey or sit out there and fill exactly just like we meant for you to…“unworthy”. No wonder so many people, who no longer believe, keep going to church. I for one, no longer go to the Temple weddings. I’ll see my family at the reception later. If me and my family aren’t good enough to be invited to the ceremony, we’re not good enough to be in the family photo either.
    There is nothing in life that is black and white. Nothing. It’s actually all gray, and that is a beautiful thing. But *most* Mormons simply can not see that, let alone accept it. Someone like Mike, who represents most active Mormons, IMO, love the security and superiority his self righteousness gives him. They live for it. They eat drink and breathe the “better than” outlook each and every day of their lives.
    If that is the Christianity they are teaching in the Mormon Church doesn’t it make you all want to go join right up?
    Kathleen (the artist in the film)

  45. Kathleen Reply

    Wow, just WOW, at the comments from Mike.
    But in the long run, thank GAWD he posted them here. He is the shining example of what we, as Exmo’s, have gone through. The literal verbal abuse, let alone emotional, from destructive narrow minded treatment like his.
    My deepest love goes out to him and the many many Mormons like him. What a sad shallow life they have. And I do mean shallow. I know many Mormons like them who actually laugh at the fact that someone can’t see their child be married. I have family who treat/treated me the same way. Either pay and obey or sit out there and fill exactly just like we meant for you to…“unworthy”. No wonder so many people, who no longer believe, keep going to church. I for one, no longer go to the Temple weddings. I’ll see my family at the reception later. If me and my family aren’t good enough to be invited to the ceremony, we’re not good enough to be in the family photo either.
    There is nothing in life that is black and white. Nothing. It’s actually all gray, and that is a beautiful thing. But *most* Mormons simply can not see that, let alone accept it. Someone like Mike, who represents most active Mormons, IMO, love the security and superiority his self righteousness gives him. They live for it. They eat drink and breathe the “better than” outlook each and every day of their lives.
    If that is the Christianity they are teaching in the Mormon Church doesn’t it make you all want to go join right up?
    Kathleen (the artist in the film)

  46. Jeff Ricks Reply

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Leaving Mormonism is hard but it’s not hard because life outside of Mormonism is inherently difficult, for the most part it’s hard because too many Mormon family members and friends who stay in the Church seem to do their best to make it hard for those who leave. Mike, thank you for providing a perfect example of an attitude that’s quite pervasive in the Church. Your arrogant, cruel, ill-informed judgmentalism against those who leave makes my point quite well.

  47. Jeff Ricks Reply

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Leaving Mormonism is hard but it’s not hard because life outside of Mormonism is inherently difficult, for the most part it’s hard because too many Mormon family members and friends who stay in the Church seem to do their best to make it hard for those who leave. Mike, thank you for providing a perfect example of an attitude that’s quite pervasive in the Church. Your arrogant, cruel, ill-informed judgmentalism against those who leave makes my point quite well.

  48. Mike Reply

    Kathleen,
    Quote:Someone like Mike, who represents most active Mormons, IMO, love the security and superiority his self righteousness gives him. They live for it. They eat drink and breathe the “better than” outlook each and every day of their lives.

    I think you misjudge me. there is not a doubt in my mind that there are people out of the church who are far better and nicer than I am.The Spirit of God is in all people, and if they follow that Spirit that leads them to do good, all the better for them.

    I stand by the Church because it contains the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances necessary for us to come unto Christ. I would love to see the effect the Gift of the Holy Ghost would have on a zealous member of an evangelical Church. I would love to see and hear a gospel principles lesson taught by a studious Jew who converted to Mormonism.

    I am a bit snarky in my coments here because I can see through the nonsense so may of these ex mormons spout off. There is no deception, there is no conspiricy to cover up. The Mormon Church is the Church of Christ, His gospel is here in its fulness, the Holy Ghost testifies and accompanys it, the Father bears record of it. Joseph Smith was the first great prophet of this gospel dispensation, and introduced the Abrahamic Covenant to all who are willing to accept Christs gospel.

    I do not say this in arrogance, I say this with a humble pride that does not tolerate the anemic rantings of the dissaffected.

  49. Mike Reply

    Kathleen,
    Quote:Someone like Mike, who represents most active Mormons, IMO, love the security and superiority his self righteousness gives him. They live for it. They eat drink and breathe the “better than” outlook each and every day of their lives.

    I think you misjudge me. there is not a doubt in my mind that there are people out of the church who are far better and nicer than I am.The Spirit of God is in all people, and if they follow that Spirit that leads them to do good, all the better for them.

    I stand by the Church because it contains the fulness of the gospel and the ordinances necessary for us to come unto Christ. I would love to see the effect the Gift of the Holy Ghost would have on a zealous member of an evangelical Church. I would love to see and hear a gospel principles lesson taught by a studious Jew who converted to Mormonism.

    I am a bit snarky in my coments here because I can see through the nonsense so may of these ex mormons spout off. There is no deception, there is no conspiricy to cover up. The Mormon Church is the Church of Christ, His gospel is here in its fulness, the Holy Ghost testifies and accompanys it, the Father bears record of it. Joseph Smith was the first great prophet of this gospel dispensation, and introduced the Abrahamic Covenant to all who are willing to accept Christs gospel.

    I do not say this in arrogance, I say this with a humble pride that does not tolerate the anemic rantings of the dissaffected.

  50. Jeff Ricks Reply

    Mike, I’d appreciate more your opinions more if you’d frame them as what they are, opinions, instead of facts. Everything you state as fact is just an opinion, and you know what Mike? Your opinion has no more weight or value than anyone else’s, including the 99.8% of the people in the world who aren’t Mormons.

    On the homepage of PostMormon.org is this statement “We feel that arrogance attends the illusion of ‘knowing the truth.'” Mike, I’m afraid you’re living proof of that.

  51. Some Schmo Reply

    You’ll have to forgive Mike. It’s got to be hard to see and think clearly when your head is irretrievably shoved up your ass.

  52. Some Schmo Reply

    You’ll have to forgive Mike. It’s got to be hard to see and think clearly when your head is irretrievably shoved up your ass.

  53. Nonny Reply

    I’d say best podcast yet, but that would devalue the previous ones (which I thought were each the best in their time). The guests were interesting and well-spoken. The panelists asked insightful questions. Well done. I haven’t seen the film, so cannot speak to the content there, but this podcast was a great background piece.

  54. Nonny Reply

    I’d say best podcast yet, but that would devalue the previous ones (which I thought were each the best in their time). The guests were interesting and well-spoken. The panelists asked insightful questions. Well done. I haven’t seen the film, so cannot speak to the content there, but this podcast was a great background piece.

  55. Mafalda Reply

    Quote;

    The girl in the film couldn’t understand the church court system, and didn’t understand what the big deal was. Apparently sleeping with multiple partners while separated from your husband is no big deal in her home country.

    It’s my understanding she was DIVORCED from her husband. Does that still make her an adulterous individual? My thing is this; no one should judge others neither tell them how to live their lives. Sexuality is a very personal issue, no one has the right to sensor anyone’s life. What does give the “Church” the right to invade such a private part of people’s lives?

  56. Mafalda Reply

    Quote;

    The girl in the film couldn’t understand the church court system, and didn’t understand what the big deal was. Apparently sleeping with multiple partners while separated from your husband is no big deal in her home country.

    It’s my understanding she was DIVORCED from her husband. Does that still make her an adulterous individual? My thing is this; no one should judge others neither tell them how to live their lives. Sexuality is a very personal issue, no one has the right to sensor anyone’s life. What does give the “Church” the right to invade such a private part of people’s lives?

  57. Tom Reply

    First of all I want to second John’s statement and state for the record that I also want Mike to take a regular part of the discussion on Mormon Expression. I may not agree with some of his opinions, but I do admire his courage and the fact that he is willing to state his opinions publicly and stand by them.

    While I am just as guilty of piling on the noob (Mike) like seemingly everyone else is, what saddens me is that we are overlooking a potentially great discussion surrounding the film and those who were interviewed.

    So, I vote for giving Mike time to heal and move on to discussing a great film. I just checked out the official website: http://www.intheshadowofthetemple.com/ and it appears that they are now selling copies of their DVD for purchase. So get out there and order yourself (and your family) a copy! I want to hear more reviews from people who have seen the movie.

  58. Tom Reply

    First of all I want to second John’s statement and state for the record that I also want Mike to take a regular part of the discussion on Mormon Expression. I may not agree with some of his opinions, but I do admire his courage and the fact that he is willing to state his opinions publicly and stand by them.

    While I am just as guilty of piling on the noob (Mike) like seemingly everyone else is, what saddens me is that we are overlooking a potentially great discussion surrounding the film and those who were interviewed.

    So, I vote for giving Mike time to heal and move on to discussing a great film. I just checked out the official website: http://www.intheshadowofthetemple.com/ and it appears that they are now selling copies of their DVD for purchase. So get out there and order yourself (and your family) a copy! I want to hear more reviews from people who have seen the movie.

  59. Nathan R Kennard Reply

    I saw the movie this weekend at its official premier. I was expecting and prepared for an emotional experience. I had spoken with many of the people featured in the film. Dennis and Karen have presented an engaging perspective on personal challenges faced by some people who experience a change in their belief. It was also poignant to see that love can bridge belief chasms. I hope this movie will strengthen some of the relationships I have in which differences in belief are an obstacle to communication.

    For me, the filmmakers have put together a story which will provide opportunities to discuss and consider various beliefs, experiences and perspectives and may provide encouragement that people can find meaning and happiness in transition and in unexpected ways.

    Thanks for the podcast and the discussion.

  60. Nathan R Kennard Reply

    I saw the movie this weekend at its official premier. I was expecting and prepared for an emotional experience. I had spoken with many of the people featured in the film. Dennis and Karen have presented an engaging perspective on personal challenges faced by some people who experience a change in their belief. It was also poignant to see that love can bridge belief chasms. I hope this movie will strengthen some of the relationships I have in which differences in belief are an obstacle to communication.

    For me, the filmmakers have put together a story which will provide opportunities to discuss and consider various beliefs, experiences and perspectives and may provide encouragement that people can find meaning and happiness in transition and in unexpected ways.

    Thanks for the podcast and the discussion.

  61. badseed Reply

    I enjoyed the podcast and am excited to see the movie at some point. I was too busy to see the premiere at the Exmo conference. =(

    Mike,
    Having read the comments I can say that I understand how people like yourself have a hard time seeing any value in the film. For orthodox believers preservation of the faith trumps everything else. Appreciating that there are valid and differing views outside the mainstream Church is difficult if not impossible for many who can only see the world— and especially Mormonism— through a very narrow lens. (“if your unhappy in the church its because your doing it wrong”

    Real emotions and ideas such as a sense of freedom from being honest about one’s own belief and the pain that an exmormon feels at being excluded from a child’s wedding may “bug” you— and dismissing such ideas may help people like you feel more secure in your faith. However, until LDS begin to grapple with these feelings and stories and lives— there will never be any real understanding between the believer and the ‘leaver.’ There will be no such understanding if members can’t accept that leaving is a valid option for many.

  62. badseed Reply

    I enjoyed the podcast and am excited to see the movie at some point. I was too busy to see the premiere at the Exmo conference. =(

    Mike,
    Having read the comments I can say that I understand how people like yourself have a hard time seeing any value in the film. For orthodox believers preservation of the faith trumps everything else. Appreciating that there are valid and differing views outside the mainstream Church is difficult if not impossible for many who can only see the world— and especially Mormonism— through a very narrow lens. (“if your unhappy in the church its because your doing it wrong”

    Real emotions and ideas such as a sense of freedom from being honest about one’s own belief and the pain that an exmormon feels at being excluded from a child’s wedding may “bug” you— and dismissing such ideas may help people like you feel more secure in your faith. However, until LDS begin to grapple with these feelings and stories and lives— there will never be any real understanding between the believer and the ‘leaver.’ There will be no such understanding if members can’t accept that leaving is a valid option for many.

  63. Mel Reply

    I listened to this this morning, and I was very impressed with the panelists’ questions. The whole interview was very interesting to listen to, and my run went by quickly.

    I for one, feel that Mike ought to remain included in the panels. It’s important that the narrow minded, orthodox viewpoint be brought to the forefront with each issue. How else will we gain sympathy?

    In answer to the question, why would never mos create this documentary: To me, the answer is obvious. Only never mos could tell this story. Those who have left the church are too buried in family politics and personal pain to pursue this kind of project. Even those who wanted to talk, couldn’t. I am becoming more aware that we need to speak and tell our stories, or others will be telling them for us. I am grateful for the work of this film, as it presents the darker underbelly of the church, and a side that people should be aware of, no matter how uncomfortable that awareness is.

    It was a wonderful, provocative interview, and I will be buying the film. Thanks, guys!

  64. Mel Reply

    I listened to this this morning, and I was very impressed with the panelists’ questions. The whole interview was very interesting to listen to, and my run went by quickly.

    I for one, feel that Mike ought to remain included in the panels. It’s important that the narrow minded, orthodox viewpoint be brought to the forefront with each issue. How else will we gain sympathy?

    In answer to the question, why would never mos create this documentary: To me, the answer is obvious. Only never mos could tell this story. Those who have left the church are too buried in family politics and personal pain to pursue this kind of project. Even those who wanted to talk, couldn’t. I am becoming more aware that we need to speak and tell our stories, or others will be telling them for us. I am grateful for the work of this film, as it presents the darker underbelly of the church, and a side that people should be aware of, no matter how uncomfortable that awareness is.

    It was a wonderful, provocative interview, and I will be buying the film. Thanks, guys!

  65. JackUK Reply

    I may be too late to the discussion here but I’ve only just listened to this episode.I just wanted to say that I have heard every episode of the podcast so far and enjoyed every one. This episode has been particularly thought-provoking.Some personal background:I’m an active English Latter-day Saint here in the United Kingdom. I’ve been a member of the Church for well over 30 years and I participate fully in my ward. I think I’m aware of most of the controversial issues surrounding the Church with regards to its history and its practices.Personal experience has convinced me that both the gospel of Christ is true and that the Church (despite the divine origins of the Restoration) as a human insitution is deeply flawed. I think that for any group in society to be denied dignity, tolerance, rights and respect is appalling. I feel that any individual conflicted in their faith should be accorded respect and understanding and their decisions to stay in the LDS church or to leave deserve acceptance. Rejection by family,friends and Church members is surely not a Christlike option. Labelling and name calling from any side is never helpful to a discussion and never increases dialogue and understanding. I’ve had many friends leave the church over the years for a whole raft of reasons. Many of them went through some awful struggles before they made their decision to leave.I miss them at Church but respect their choice. Sometimes I think that because the Church is still in its adolesence, maybe even its infancy, it hasn’t yet learned how to deal with its non-conformists. It doesn’t understand their perspective and resorts to dogma and discipline too hastily.I think a tipping point will come some day but I’m not holding my breath. I love the gospel and decided a long time ago that I was going to stay in the Church despite it being a very frustrating place sometimes. I some times think that the church doesn’t have enough ‘less actives’ attending if you know what I mean so only one dominant face of Mormonism is really seen and heard. We really do need a wide angle lens to see the whole picture of the Mormon experience.

  66. JackUK Reply

    I may be too late to the discussion here but I’ve only just listened to this episode.I just wanted to say that I have heard every episode of the podcast so far and enjoyed every one. This episode has been particularly thought-provoking.Some personal background:I’m an active English Latter-day Saint here in the United Kingdom. I’ve been a member of the Church for well over 30 years and I participate fully in my ward. I think I’m aware of most of the controversial issues surrounding the Church with regards to its history and its practices.Personal experience has convinced me that both the gospel of Christ is true and that the Church (despite the divine origins of the Restoration) as a human insitution is deeply flawed. I think that for any group in society to be denied dignity, tolerance, rights and respect is appalling. I feel that any individual conflicted in their faith should be accorded respect and understanding and their decisions to stay in the LDS church or to leave deserve acceptance. Rejection by family,friends and Church members is surely not a Christlike option. Labelling and name calling from any side is never helpful to a discussion and never increases dialogue and understanding. I’ve had many friends leave the church over the years for a whole raft of reasons. Many of them went through some awful struggles before they made their decision to leave.I miss them at Church but respect their choice. Sometimes I think that because the Church is still in its adolesence, maybe even its infancy, it hasn’t yet learned how to deal with its non-conformists. It doesn’t understand their perspective and resorts to dogma and discipline too hastily.I think a tipping point will come some day but I’m not holding my breath. I love the gospel and decided a long time ago that I was going to stay in the Church despite it being a very frustrating place sometimes. I some times think that the church doesn’t have enough ‘less actives’ attending if you know what I mean so only one dominant face of Mormonism is really seen and heard. We really do need a wide angle lens to see the whole picture of the Mormon experience.

  67. ginarec Reply

    I have been listening to all of the podcasts this week and am very impressed! I have been re-thinking many things. A wonderful podcast!

  68. ginarec Reply

    I have been listening to all of the podcasts this week and am very impressed! I have been re-thinking many things. A wonderful podcast!

  69. jean Reply

    Harsh, cruel and judgmental. These are the adjectives that describe Mike’s comments. Does he know the people involved? Why does he say of the Spanish woman “Apparently sleeping with multiple partners while seperated from your husband is no big deal in her home country”.

    She did not admit to having multiple partners; she went through a church court. Who the hell are you to judge her? You are not God; leave it to Him please.

    The woman who was excluded from her son’s wedding did not say she wanted to go to the temple. You are reading into the statement something that was not there. She wanted him to have a ring ceremony or something. She wanted to be a part of it. Why do people in most other countries other than the USA and Canada get to have a civil ceremony to which everyone is invited and then take care of their religion’s teachings later?

    Mike obviously knows nothing about homosexuality and its causes; he is a pompous judgmental ass who can only spout off the opinions he has been given.

    The woman who did not know about temple garments was much more than just a Mormon; she was and is a hard working mother, a great friend; full of love and charity which is more than I can say for Mike the tinkling cymbal. 1 Cor. 13: 1 or should that be a stinking symbol of the bigotry that causes so much pain to the whining hand wringers.

    The one TBM in the film has more charity in his little finger than you offered in all your comments Mike and I should know, I’m married to him.
    Go to the God you love and serve so much and admit your sins to him for they are many.

  70. jean Reply

    Harsh, cruel and judgmental. These are the adjectives that describe Mike’s comments. Does he know the people involved? Why does he say of the Spanish woman “Apparently sleeping with multiple partners while seperated from your husband is no big deal in her home country”.

    She did not admit to having multiple partners; she went through a church court. Who the hell are you to judge her? You are not God; leave it to Him please.

    The woman who was excluded from her son’s wedding did not say she wanted to go to the temple. You are reading into the statement something that was not there. She wanted him to have a ring ceremony or something. She wanted to be a part of it. Why do people in most other countries other than the USA and Canada get to have a civil ceremony to which everyone is invited and then take care of their religion’s teachings later?

    Mike obviously knows nothing about homosexuality and its causes; he is a pompous judgmental ass who can only spout off the opinions he has been given.

    The woman who did not know about temple garments was much more than just a Mormon; she was and is a hard working mother, a great friend; full of love and charity which is more than I can say for Mike the tinkling cymbal. 1 Cor. 13: 1 or should that be a stinking symbol of the bigotry that causes so much pain to the whining hand wringers.

    The one TBM in the film has more charity in his little finger than you offered in all your comments Mike and I should know, I’m married to him.
    Go to the God you love and serve so much and admit your sins to him for they are many.

  71. Jason Reply

    Jean,

    I liked most of your comments, but also enjoyed the self-contradictions:

    “Who the hell are you to judge her? You are not God; leave it to Him please.”

    “Go to the God you love and serve so much and admit your sins to him for they are many.”

    Whoops! Lol.

  72. Jason Reply

    Jean,

    I liked most of your comments, but also enjoyed the self-contradictions:

    “Who the hell are you to judge her? You are not God; leave it to Him please.”

    “Go to the God you love and serve so much and admit your sins to him for they are many.”

    Whoops! Lol.

  73. Kyle Reply

    A comment on the freedom that people may feel after leaving the church: for me, it was not the release from responsibility that gave me a sense of freedom, but rather, the release from having to constantly live what I didn’t believe. I had tried to believe and tried to convince myself, but something inside of me just knew that I was lying — to everyone, especially myself. When I finally admitted to myself that I just didn’t believe the church is true, the freedom I felt was that of finally coming clean and being truly honest — even though I knew that being honest would make my life much more difficult in many ways.

  74. Kyle Reply

    A comment on the freedom that people may feel after leaving the church: for me, it was not the release from responsibility that gave me a sense of freedom, but rather, the release from having to constantly live what I didn’t believe. I had tried to believe and tried to convince myself, but something inside of me just knew that I was lying — to everyone, especially myself. When I finally admitted to myself that I just didn’t believe the church is true, the freedom I felt was that of finally coming clean and being truly honest — even though I knew that being honest would make my life much more difficult in many ways.

  75. Mister IT Reply

    Great podcast! I think that I probably summed up my feelings about this documentary best in my Amazon Review which said:

    “This documentary is long overdue.

    For years “Shadow Mormons” (still-practicing non-believers) have suffered in silence rather than incurring the consequences of publicly admitting their doubts and disbelief in Mormonism. As former BYU Professor and Mormon Arza Evans articulated the problem in his classic white paper, “Families Held Hostage”:

    “At first, the concept and slogan “families can be together forever” may sound like a harmless, romantic notion; but in reality it is perhaps the most controlling and stifling doctrine taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It effectively creates fear of ostracism, closes minds, and regulates personal behavior. Questions about this and other Church doctrine can cause serious family problems including divorce.”

    Or as one Shadow Mormon powerfully cried out on an ExMormon discussion board:

    “To those of you on the outside reading this, I beg you, please do not forget us. Please remember the hundreds of thousands of unique, special, beautiful individuals that are currently serving life sentences in the prison of Mormonism. Please do not cease to pray; to whatever God you serve, for our deliverance. Some of us have no hope for redemption or liberation. For the greater good, we willingly sacrifice our souls upon the altar of conformity and orthodoxy. Our pain is real. Our sentence is absolute.”

    Through this video Shadow Mormons (many appear literally in shadow, some with altered audio in this DVD) have a voice – their story is compelling, heart breaking, provocative, and moving.

    I recommend this video to anyone who is interested in Mormonism to any degree, to those are who are Mormons, or to anyone who is contemplating leaving the LdS Church. However, I especially recommend it to any Shadow Mormon who is trying to find a way to open up a discussion with others.

    I believe that this DVD can be a powerful force for good both within and without Mormonism if it is used appropriately, respectfully, and wisely.”
    http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Temple-Dennis-Lavery/dp/B002VC7CMO/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1271968430&sr=8-3

  76. Mister IT Reply

    Great podcast! I think that I probably summed up my feelings about this documentary best in my Amazon Review which said:

    “This documentary is long overdue.

    For years “Shadow Mormons” (still-practicing non-believers) have suffered in silence rather than incurring the consequences of publicly admitting their doubts and disbelief in Mormonism. As former BYU Professor and Mormon Arza Evans articulated the problem in his classic white paper, “Families Held Hostage”:

    “At first, the concept and slogan “families can be together forever” may sound like a harmless, romantic notion; but in reality it is perhaps the most controlling and stifling doctrine taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. It effectively creates fear of ostracism, closes minds, and regulates personal behavior. Questions about this and other Church doctrine can cause serious family problems including divorce.”

    Or as one Shadow Mormon powerfully cried out on an ExMormon discussion board:

    “To those of you on the outside reading this, I beg you, please do not forget us. Please remember the hundreds of thousands of unique, special, beautiful individuals that are currently serving life sentences in the prison of Mormonism. Please do not cease to pray; to whatever God you serve, for our deliverance. Some of us have no hope for redemption or liberation. For the greater good, we willingly sacrifice our souls upon the altar of conformity and orthodoxy. Our pain is real. Our sentence is absolute.”

    Through this video Shadow Mormons (many appear literally in shadow, some with altered audio in this DVD) have a voice – their story is compelling, heart breaking, provocative, and moving.

    I recommend this video to anyone who is interested in Mormonism to any degree, to those are who are Mormons, or to anyone who is contemplating leaving the LdS Church. However, I especially recommend it to any Shadow Mormon who is trying to find a way to open up a discussion with others.

    I believe that this DVD can be a powerful force for good both within and without Mormonism if it is used appropriately, respectfully, and wisely.”
    http://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Temple-Dennis-Lavery/dp/B002VC7CMO/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1271968430&sr=8-3

  77. Chriccha Reply

    Film is unavailable at Amazon… Can it be purchased from somewhere else? (Or put on the web for viewing?)

  78. Ted Hansen Reply

    Another great episode!  Going for a second listen because I can’t get enough of this stuff!

  79. Cindy Reply

    Loved this episode!  Thanks for sharing your story.  I can relate to so much of what you went through.  I believed with all of my being that those PH men could read my mind too.  I always thought something was wrong with ME when I didn’t like certain aspects of the church so when I found out the truth I was relieved, but also angry about wasting so much time self-loathing.

    Ahhh, life is good now!

    • Amy Blosch Reply

       thank you Cindy 🙂 i found the PH just another terrifying arm of control and power the so many men in the church were entitled to.

  80. jackrodwell Reply

    interesting story.  but does the church really preach that if you are blonde hair and blue eyes you are the best most righteous thing in the world.  i dont think it does 

    • Heather_ME Reply

       Amy wasn’t claiming it does.  She was being figurative about her reaction to the church’s teachings that members are special and better than the rest of the world.

        • Amy Blosch Reply

          i explicitly said that because thats what i was told by my parents and those teachings we definitely part of the pre-existence dogma ie blacks we unrighteous & whites were delightsome in the eyes of the Lord. No one said that in Sac Mtg but i was raised to believe that because i was born white that meant i was super good before i came to earth. Those things were certainly taught in the 70’s and 80’s.

          • Amy Blosch

             and to piggy back-seeing as how blonde haired, blue eyed people are the held up as the standard for beauty-i was taught that my arrival to earth in such a body was also a sign privilege given to me by pre earthly righteousness. im not saying i believe it or agree with it but i really was raised with these ideas. im not making any of it up.

          • jackrodwell

            fair enough but that was back in the day. comparing the church to the kkk is not right. ive personaly seen the darkest black men sealed to whitest “delightsome” white women in the salt lake temple.  i dont think the kkk or a racist organisation would do that .

            This gospel shall be preached unto every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people” (D&C 133:37). 

            we are all children of god.  

          • jackrodwell

            and what about a fat girl with blonde hair blue eyes and an ugly face . she is more likely to date black men. is she still the best, because there are plenty of those as  well

          • Amy Blosch

            First of all i used the KKK as an example of an organization that is 1-exclusive, 2-elitest, 3-secretive/sacred (if you relate to that term better) and 4-lastly racist. AND if you listened to the comment, i said that i was actually borrowing the example from someone else. The point behind the example was to illustrate WHY some people stay these types of organizations (to hopefully change them from the inside) and why they leave (realization that change is impossible). The example could just as well have been The Boys Scouts of America with a gay person deciding whether to stay within the ranks or leave based on their treatment and exclusionary policies of gay people. Maybe you missed the point of my comment entirely? i have no desire to debate the reality of the LDS churches racial problems with you. They stand alone as well as the putrid comment you made abt fat girls dating black men. YOU are showing your colors. Tsk Tsk.

  81. DontSpamMeBro Reply

    Amy, I was curious on what path your brother took?  Is he an active member today?  Do you have a good relationship with him?

    I really cracked up when you said you moved to Utah to leave the church!

    • Amy Blosch Reply

      My brothers story is much worse than mine.He was very violent-when i was 11 he attacked me with a hand saw and cut my face open. Long story short-by age 14 he was kicked out of the house and lived in group homes similar to foster care. He went through several of them. He never lived at home again. He tried to make a new life for himself by getting married and having a baby but when her parents found out abt his past (its too much to get into here) they forced her to annul the marriage. They had a PH holder waiting in the wings for her and she married him with in the year. Her new husband adopted their son and my brother never saw his son again. He lives in Cali still and has repaired his relationship with our parents to some degree but he trusts NO ONE and none of us know where he lives, has his phone number…i have no way of getting in touch with him but he shows up on holidays and when babies are born. He is absolutely incapable of having any intimate relationships, he doesnt have GF’s-just superficial sexual relationships. He is so devastated by not having access to his son that he refuses to even acknowledge that part of his life. He’s dead inside to some degree…. i love my brother-i’m his greatest ally and he knows that but he keeps anyone that loves him at a huge distance.

      • DontSpamMeBro Reply

         Very very sad.  I don’t remember exactly what you said in the podcast, but I got the feeling he might have had some issues at least partly due to your step father’s abuse.  Thank you for sharing your moving story.  Best wishes for the future.

    • Amy Blosch Reply

       i should probably also mention that my 2 sisters that were born to my mom and step dad are totally fine, normal, happy, well adjusted and faithful. My parents didnt raise them in the same manner. One could say that once my brother and i were out of the house completely the influence of the adversary allowed them to raise up righteous children.

  82. Wes Cauthers Reply

    My favorite part of this episode:

    “…it was just like someone flipped a switch, it was just like, Oh….my….God! How could my parents believe this? How could they have raised me with this? Both my parents are smart people, my dad has a master’s of criminology, he detects facts for a living! He interrogates bad guys to get to the bottom of it! And this is what they had decided was true, like they believed it! And that’s when I started to really think…which, I’ll go ahead and say it cause this isn’t Mormon Expression…CULT, like this is cult thinking, not culty, not cultish, this is cult thinking, this is mind control. What I experienced was way beyond what a normal religion…like I’m thinking, I don’t think the methodists are dealing with this kind of stuff, I don’t think the people that want to leave the Lutheran church have to deal with this kind of thing, ya know like this is something way different.”

    I can so relate to you there, Amy! I had a very similar moment myself and whatever it was that got “turned off like a light switch” growing up in Mormonism was now in the ON position and receiving full power!

    It sounds like Mormonism really fueled and facilitated the abusive tendencies of your step-father (and the passive stance of your mother) which is exactly what cults do. They take an already bad situation and just make it worse.

    Really enjoyed hearing your story and I look forward to seeing where you take ME as the new Executive Producer!

    • Amy Blosch Reply

       LOL!!! yes…yes indeed…i played the cult card! And yes, the PH and the Church acted as a ‘get outta jail free’ card in some ways for my parents. There were lots of things i wasnt able to address re. my parents that may have given a better perspective. My step father was also raised by a law enforcement professional and HIS father (grandfather) was abusive and eventually committed suicide. Lots of factors that were not involved in Mormonism came together to create a perfect storm in our family. Such is the nature of fundamentalist religions….

      p.s. having my words written back to me was a hoot!!! <3 xo

      • Wes Cauthers Reply

        Yes, abuse is commonly passed on from previous generations and oppressive, authoritarian groups like Mormonism are perfect environments for it to flourish.

  83. Justin Carlson Reply

    Loved the story, Amy.  Loved the complication.  Loved the heart.  What a voice.

    • Amy Blosch Reply

       thank you so much Justin…..sorry but i have to ask-when you say “what a voice” do you mean the interview itself or my actual voice…cuz i have an ongoing joke with myself and others that i sound a bit like a coked up whore on tape. 🙂

  84. Nathan R Kennard Reply

    Amy, I loved hearing your experience and perspective. Thank you for sharing.

    Our experience was quite dissimilar yet I am glad to hear you emerged from yours. You are a good example and provide hope that a person can survive.

  85. Mark Smith Reply

    Amy, I am listening to your podcast.  Very interesting.  I grew up a few years ahead of you in the same neighborhood as your Father and your In Laws. Have always known who you were, but never had any idea what you went through.  Really interesting to hear about your life with your Mother and step Dad.  Just heard the part about where you believed the church was true but hoped that it wasn’t.  Interesting that my dilema as a youth was just the opposite.  That is I hoped that it was true, but just couldn’t find it believable. I finally left the church at 17.  I enjoyed some occasional good conversations with your father about religion and other topics in my late teens and early 20’s.  He also played a role in sparking my interest in photography as an early teenager.  Also I have ended up being sort of a hippie mormon humpty dumpty one foot in and one foot out like him in many ways. I am not saying that he is this great role model or anything, but rather he was someone I could relate to.  Nor that he corrupted me in any way any more than someone could blame me for corrupting your older Brother in Law, T.  Ultimately we all make our own choices and that is good, because where we get it right we get to take credit.  Im trying to not make any judgements about your Dad other than saying of adults around me as a teenager goes he is someone I could relate to a hell of a lot more than say Ron Lafferty.   I think that your dad is a basically honest person and also that in the area where he has character defects they are very similar to mine. I wont go into detail I might be wrong.  I just paused the podcast at where you came out to live with your Dad, have no idea what you will have to say.  Just thought I would pause and state some of my thoughts about the rest of your story before I actually hear it.  Throw out some of my prejudices and then listen to the rest of the story, and see how my preconceived impressions about your Dad and step mom actually play out in your story, just for fun. If I am mischaracterizing I will come back and post an apology.  Just find it really interesting to sit and listen to someone I kind of know on a superficial level and realize that here is this really complex life with all kinds of experiences and opinions which I could have never imagined.  Makes me wonder if I really know anyone very well when it comes right down to it.  If I were to have characterized what I knew about your Mom before listening to the first part of your podcast I would have been way off. Thanks for doing this podcast, hearing the journey of another persons life helps me understand my own.

  86. Mark Smith Reply

    Ok finished listened to the rest, nothing different about your Dad and Step Mom, some interesting  twists I wouldn’t have exactly expected, but the biggest thing I get from how your story has evolved is that your greatest growth has came from where you have chosen to be your own greatest influence on yourself.  What I take from your experience is the importance of owning your relationships, but not allowing them to cause you to act or react in ways that you wouldn’t choose of your own free will.  Very admirable.  Makes me want to grow up too someday.

    • Amy Blosch Reply

       MARK!!!! you are a Mormon Expressionite!! LOL …..wow.  i can i totally understand that you would relate to my bio father, S.R.. He’s easy to talk to, he’s funny, he’s effing brilliant…however he was a shit parent. i chose not to get into that arm of my family tree for the interview because 1-not enough time, 2-not sure if anyone really cares since it has nothing to do with my exit story, and 3-it just adds another layer to a confusing life-but i have cut off all contact with S.R. and have for 3 yrs. I dont know what happened when he moved to N. Carolina with C.N. and rejoined the Church but a pot smoking, neo-con hippie, mixed with the idea that one has moral authority through the Mormon Church proved not to be a good mix for him.
      as for BIL, T.-i hear he’s doing well and my ex husband is doing as well as could be expected i suppose….
      now-are you officially out of the church or have you disaffected to the point that everyone knows you are not a believer? hit me up on FB 🙂
      btw, thank you for your kind comments re. my experience….i appreciate it.

  87. jennwestfall Reply

    Amy–

    Thank you for sharing your story.  I really enjoyed listening to it.  And I agree–when I was a TBM I would say “How could people think this is a cult?  Cults don’t have 13 million members worldwide!”  but as I tried to leave it, well, let’s just say what you said…leaving the Lutheran church would not be the same!!

    • Amy Blosch Reply

       thanks jenn! I hope people understand what i meant by that comment….i didnt mean to imply that its not hard to leave other faiths-just that the “great reveal” of Mormonism is vastly different than any other faith i know of….

  88. Brooke Helm Reply

    Amy, we share a great great great grandfather!  Of course there are probably a lot of us out there considering Jens had 3 wives.  My family is through his third wife, Ane Katrine.  I guess that would make us some sort of cousins.  Great interview.  Thanks for sharing your story.

    • Amy Blosch Reply

       awesome~!!!! just another example of why i will never tire of Mormonism!!

  89. Jonee Woodard Reply

    As a first time interviewer, I can say no more than thank you Jeremy for your kind words.  Luckily Andrew made it easy…he has a fantastic story.

  90. Jean Bodie Reply

     

    Jonee and Andrew, what a great job. For a young person to
    come to the conclusion that there is no god when they are serving a mission and
    have active, loving, believing family members is an enormous milestone and not
    one that all can handle.

    Andrew, I think that your kind of groups are so necessary,
    as a support and as an education forum. When you have been raised to believe
    only one way, it takes a long time to learn new ways of seeing things, so for
    that, we need one another. I am constantly learning from my own FB friends and
    when I compare this with the stasis I felt in the church, like you, I do not
    even consider going back to that way of life.

     

    As you talk about ‘turning people in’ or being exposed as a
    secularist, it sounds like you live in the old Soviet Union.
    This completely blows my mind and I feel that if rational thinking church
    members would really open their minds to this, they would realize how wrong it
    is to stifle the mind exploration that young people are so capable of. You are
    the future of the world and it sounds like a better one.

     

    I had a little chuckle at your expense Andrew as you spoke
    of being proud of the group and then did an “OMG I said the Pride word.” It’s
    okay to be proud of what you have accomplished. We might all experience new
    healthy self esteem if we would forget that Ezra Taft Benson talk and recognize
    good things about ourselves and others. Keep meeting and sharing. One day we
    will live in a rationalist, humanist world – it’s an uphill battle but we can
    do it together.

     

  91. amyblosch Reply

    almost half way through…you are such a delight Jonee!! this is a really interesting interview. (done) Andrew is a great interviewee…this was fun to listen to!

  92. ozpoof Reply

    I too had terrifying times as a child hearing “demons” all night with every bump and rattle. I used to believe the colours I saw when I closed my eyes was the face of Lucifer forming. I had a very hard time sleeping. I imagined I was surrounded by demons and evil spirits and was under attack. This is what I was taught in primary. I remember listening to my parents and their TBM friends talk about how to identify a demon by shaking its hand. I was terrified to the point of shivering and being physically sick. This is very common among Mormons. The last time I heard anyone speak of demons was when, after a decade away, I attended a Mormon wedding reception. The inevitable talk around Mormon tables seems to turn to demonology and apocalyptic talk. They love this stuff. I can’t tolerate it any more. Give me atheist discussions any day. They are far more uplifting and interesting.

    The Mormon “church” is the most obsessed with Satan and demons of any I have experienced. I believe they talk about Satan far more than Christ. Raising any child in this religion leaves psychological damage. The only way I lost my fear of the dark, even as a grown man, was when I stopped believing in Mormonism. Mormons claim they are the elite, and have the true power of God through the priesthood, but they are scared little children.

    I now see them as no better than ill educated tribes in Papua New Guinea with special rituals to keep evil spirits away from their hut. It’s depressing, damaging, nonsense that should not be taught to children.

  93. ozpoof Reply

    I think maybe this podcast might be the one I have been waiting for to let my TBM mum listen to. Great work you two.

  94. jennwestfall Reply

    This was awesome.  I wish I could find a community like this in my town.  Maybe I should start one.  

  95. Justin Reply

    I just listened to this fantastic episode. I clicked on the hyperlinks for Dennis and Karen’s websites but they are no longer functioning. Does anyone know what happened? You can’t even find their stuff on youtube anymore. I was only able to find their documentary for purchase on amazon or from exmormonfoundation. Seems kinda odd.

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