Episode 22: Does the Church Discourage Discussion? The Debate

38 comments on “Episode 22: Does the Church Discourage Discussion? The Debate”

    • Devin Reply

      I actually though Nyal did an excellent job supporting his position from a previous pod cast to “bring down the church.” Several times in his defence I thought to myself that this was the very reason I couldn’t believe any longer.

      Thanks again for the entertainment… why can’t I leave Mormonism alone? It is just so entertaining!

  1. Devin Reply

    I actually though Nyal did an excellent job supporting his position from a previous pod cast to “bring down the church.” Several times in his defence I thought to myself that this was the very reason I couldn’t believe any longer.

    Thanks again for the entertainment… why can’t I leave Mormonism alone? It is just so entertaining!

  2. George Reply

    Ohh.. Scottie…. You are Dead to me…… :=)

    Nyal was so whacked out with his arguments that it was all I could do in the middle of the podcast to just keep from busting a gut. I just wanted to scream “Are you freaking serious”. Luckily he wasn’t and was just play acting. I mean… How???? Really???

  3. George Reply

    Ohh.. Scottie…. You are Dead to me…… :=)

    Nyal was so whacked out with his arguments that it was all I could do in the middle of the podcast to just keep from busting a gut. I just wanted to scream “Are you freaking serious”. Luckily he wasn’t and was just play acting. I mean… How???? Really???

  4. John Reply

    By the way, make sure to listen past the music, all the way to the end, when Nyal reveals his true stripes.

  5. John Reply

    By the way, make sure to listen past the music, all the way to the end, when Nyal reveals his true stripes.

  6. Thaddeus Reply

    If anyone could rattle off the CHI reference for the whole “no home study groups” thing George and Nyal discuss around the 32:00 mark, I would be most grateful!

  7. Thaddeus Reply

    If anyone could rattle off the CHI reference for the whole “no home study groups” thing George and Nyal discuss around the 32:00 mark, I would be most grateful!

  8. Jeffret Reply

    I don’t think the “no home study groups” is actually in the CHI. I couldn’t find it in the 1999 edition. I believe it was actually a letter sent out to SPs and bishops. I don’t know if it was ever incorporated into the GHI/CHI. My wife’s elderly parents host and participate in a church study group. We thought they were outlawed, but I guess we’re wrong.

  9. Jeffret Reply

    I don’t think the “no home study groups” is actually in the CHI. I couldn’t find it in the 1999 edition. I believe it was actually a letter sent out to SPs and bishops. I don’t know if it was ever incorporated into the GHI/CHI. My wife’s elderly parents host and participate in a church study group. We thought they were outlawed, but I guess we’re wrong.

  10. Randy Reply

    I thought Tom should have played the apologist part instead of Nyal. It was just too difficult to suspend my disbelief knowing how Nyal really feels. Maybe Tom just doesn’t have debate experience but I know he still holds onto as much good in the church as he can.

    Having said that, I thought both parties did well but that the obvious answer is the church is not comfortable with open discussion about anything outside the correlated material. It just is indefensible, especially for a godless heathen like Nyal. 🙂

  11. Randy Reply

    I thought Tom should have played the apologist part instead of Nyal. It was just too difficult to suspend my disbelief knowing how Nyal really feels. Maybe Tom just doesn’t have debate experience but I know he still holds onto as much good in the church as he can.

    Having said that, I thought both parties did well but that the obvious answer is the church is not comfortable with open discussion about anything outside the correlated material. It just is indefensible, especially for a godless heathen like Nyal. 🙂

  12. Luigi Reply

    The Church does discourage discussion but in large part it is indirect. If you teach someone that losing their testimony will imperil their immortal soul so repeatedly to the point that they believe it then they will hide themselves from the information which they feel would endanger that testimony.

  13. Luigi Reply

    The Church does discourage discussion but in large part it is indirect. If you teach someone that losing their testimony will imperil their immortal soul so repeatedly to the point that they believe it then they will hide themselves from the information which they feel would endanger that testimony.

  14. loren Reply

    Yes, the church does discourage open discussion of uncorrelated material from its history. It has checks and balances in place (as Luigi has mentioned) that prevent members ever reaching a point where they’ll even entertain the idea that the church might not be true. I can’t believe how well Nyal argued against all this though.

  15. loren Reply

    Yes, the church does discourage open discussion of uncorrelated material from its history. It has checks and balances in place (as Luigi has mentioned) that prevent members ever reaching a point where they’ll even entertain the idea that the church might not be true. I can’t believe how well Nyal argued against all this though.

  16. Nonny Reply

    This debate was very entertaining and well done. I found it difficult get past Nyal’s actual persona. He did represent the Nay side well and sounded authentic. However, if we want to get the question answered you will have to have someone on the program who can speak for the church. Now that would be interesting.

  17. Nonny Reply

    This debate was very entertaining and well done. I found it difficult get past Nyal’s actual persona. He did represent the Nay side well and sounded authentic. However, if we want to get the question answered you will have to have someone on the program who can speak for the church. Now that would be interesting.

  18. Perry Reply

    Wow Nyal stayed in character the entire time.

    His well crafted intro was classic.

    I thought to myself, Revelation that is canonized, sets clear the doctrine.

    I thought is Nyal serious? The Manifesto (1st) set things clear???? Really? Then why did they need a 2nd and why is the 2nd just as vague as the 1st, except that it was to apply world wide?

    It never said polygamy was wrong, it just said that they encouraged people to obey the law of the land.

    So what about countries where it is NOT against the law of the land? And is not God’s law always higher?

    But he said it with the spirit and I think wow Nyle is whacked!

    Where is the real Nyle?

    Perry

  19. Perry Reply

    Wow Nyal stayed in character the entire time.

    His well crafted intro was classic.

    I thought to myself, Revelation that is canonized, sets clear the doctrine.

    I thought is Nyal serious? The Manifesto (1st) set things clear???? Really? Then why did they need a 2nd and why is the 2nd just as vague as the 1st, except that it was to apply world wide?

    It never said polygamy was wrong, it just said that they encouraged people to obey the law of the land.

    So what about countries where it is NOT against the law of the land? And is not God’s law always higher?

    But he said it with the spirit and I think wow Nyle is whacked!

    Where is the real Nyle?

    Perry

  20. Mister IT Reply

    Wow Nyal – I think that you should be expecting a call from the Maxwell Institute soon! They need mor men like you.

  21. Mister IT Reply

    Wow Nyal – I think that you should be expecting a call from the Maxwell Institute soon! They need mor men like you.

  22. Mr. IT Reply

    I enjoyed this podcast so much that I did a second listen today and I realized that George found the most obvious and current case study (at least that I know of) for his assertions: The recent excommunication of Lyndon Lamborn (see http://www.mormonthink.com/lyndonlamborn.htm )

    This case study is a practical refuting of Nyal’s assertion that the oppressive days of the 1993 Boyd K. Packer driven excommunications are over.

    The Lambron case demonstrates that one CAN and WILL still get Ex’d simply for holding a small study group to study the “meat” of the Mormon faith. Nothing has really changed.

    LdS Apologists can spin all they want but the Lydon Lamborn case discredits their arguments in this regard.

    Of course I’m not surprised that you forgot this in the heat of the moment – given how Nyal had you bobbing and weaving from blow-upon-blow of spin doctored sub-setting I’m sure that it was difficult to fully consider the greater super-set of data.

    [Dang Nyal – you’re good!]

  23. Mr. IT Reply

    I enjoyed this podcast so much that I did a second listen today and I realized that George found the most obvious and current case study (at least that I know of) for his assertions: The recent excommunication of Lyndon Lamborn (see http://www.mormonthink.com/lyndonlamborn.htm )

    This case study is a practical refuting of Nyal’s assertion that the oppressive days of the 1993 Boyd K. Packer driven excommunications are over.

    The Lambron case demonstrates that one CAN and WILL still get Ex’d simply for holding a small study group to study the “meat” of the Mormon faith. Nothing has really changed.

    LdS Apologists can spin all they want but the Lydon Lamborn case discredits their arguments in this regard.

    Of course I’m not surprised that you forgot this in the heat of the moment – given how Nyal had you bobbing and weaving from blow-upon-blow of spin doctored sub-setting I’m sure that it was difficult to fully consider the greater super-set of data.

    [Dang Nyal – you’re good!]

  24. Mr. IT Reply

    >I enjoyed this podcast so much that I did a second listen today and I realized that George found<

    That should, of course, read, "I enjoyed this podcast so much that I did a second listen today and I realized that George forgot…"

    (I hate finding my typos AFTER they post!)

  25. Mr. IT Reply

    >I enjoyed this podcast so much that I did a second listen today and I realized that George found<

    That should, of course, read, "I enjoyed this podcast so much that I did a second listen today and I realized that George forgot…"

    (I hate finding my typos AFTER they post!)

  26. Jacob Brown Reply

    Nyal, I think you almost convinced me to be rebaptized with your comparison of the Mormon institution to the scientific community!

  27. Johncallster Reply

    The church does discourage discussion.  I am proof positive.  I was teaching a Sunday school class about a year ago and was asked point blank how many wives Joseph Smith had.  I tried to sidestep the question and encourage the class to look it up at home or ask a family member.  The members of the class pressed.  I gave them the answer.  In the same lesson, when discussing the gift of the Holy Ghost, I was asked about experiences in my life when I felt the spirit and was given answers to prayers through the gift of the Holy Ghost.  I related that admittedly, I had never had such an experience but that I believe others could have.  Guess what?  I was called to the bishop’s office the next Sunday and was talked to about my candor.  The bishop began my “interview” by stating that he’d like to go through the temple recommend interview questions with me.  When he got to the part about Joseph being a prophet and responsible for the restoration, I told him I had questions about this.  He told me he thought it a good idea to take my temple recommend at that time.  All of this was initiated because I discussed Joseph’s multiple wives and I was told that this was not something I should be discussing.

    • Richard of Norway Reply

      Wow! That is really terrible. Thank you for sharing your experience. I am so sorry to hear about it. What is your membership status now? (If you don’t mind me asking.)

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