Episode 223: Are Mormons Persecuted?

21 comments on “Episode 223: Are Mormons Persecuted?”

  1. Zack Tacorin Reply

    Great episode guys!

    Mike – I love you man. As a Formon, I really appreciate your willingness to do the podcast in spite of all the crap you get from everybody. I don’t agree with you on much, and I think your courage is misdirected, but I admire that courage. Thanks for being real!

    • Gail Bartholomew Reply

      Mike despite my comment I always appreciate your contribution. I wish you were on more of these.

  2. Gail Bartholomew Reply


    When you talk about the push back after prop 8 being persecution please help me understand this. So gay marriage was a legally defined right in California before prop 8. There were people that were married legally in California that we Mormons worked very hard, gave millions and the church put out information filled with inaccuracies to make their marriage illegal, and you are saying it is wrong for them to get pissed about that?

    How would it be different than some group gave millions and told lies to make all marriages in temples illegal. So would it be persecution for we Mormons to complain, protest, and boycott business’s that gave money to this cause?

    Mike this is a real question. Please help me understand why we Mormons are not only surprised but angered that people that we worked very hard to take away their marriages and actually destroy their families are angry and wish to do and say something about those feelings. How would we as Mormons act differently.

    I can understand that we as Mormons believe that gay marriage is wrong. I disagree, but I can understand this. I can even understand that we as a group believe God told the prophet to ask us to give of our time and means to take away this group of families rights. What I need help to understand is the complete lack of empathy when our actions took something we consider sacred away from these people. Many of these people are working hard every day to raise good children, and we legally killed their families. Why is it so hard to see their pain and anger? Please please please Mike help me understand.

    • Zack Tacorin Reply


      This is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned I think Mike’s courage is misguided. He fails to see the special pleading fallacy he’s used. I doubt he’ll be able to justify this as a special case, but I’m similarly doubtful he’ll be able to admit the fallacy.

    • Christopher Wiren Reply

      Gail, I like your point!

      D&C 134:9 reads: “We do not believe it just to mingle influence with civil
      government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.”

      The Articles of Faith #12 reads: “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”

      Current members are no longer willing to actually live the teachings of Joseph Smith (laws given by God), now when the church is a powerhouse.

  3. iamse7en Reply

    Lol, this podcast is practical persecution. John has already outed himself in his supposed farewell episode (yet seemingly continues to release new episodes) when he said he was done with the podcast when he found out that some people actually increased in their faith in the Church because of the podcast. He doesn’t want to help anyone stay in an organization he deems to be “evil.” Keep fighting John. Despite your constant attacks, the Church will continue to grow and fill the earth as prophesied.

    • johnmormonexpression Reply


      Some people can leave the Church, but they just can’t leave it alone.

  4. Trent Menssen Reply

    Excellent episode, everyone. Near the middle during one of Mike’s ill-informed rants I almost had to make myself stop listening, but I’m glad I stuck it out because John’s rant was very satisfying, and it was almost verbatim what I was yelling at my car stereo on my way to work while listening to this. 🙂

    I found one thing of Mike’s very strange, near the beginning of his homophobic (sorry, can’t think of a better word) comments, he said that gay people don’t really want marriage, but then a minute or two later said that gay people are asking for rights they’ve never had before, implying that those rights were marriage rights.

    How can we want marriage rights but not really want marriage rights? Color me perplexed.

    Mike I would love to meet you in person, or even over Skype and really pick your brain sometime. I’m curious how many close friends or family you have that are gay and not following the mormon paradigm.

  5. Gail Bartholomew Reply

    I enjoyed this episode.Thanks to everyone on the panel. These are difficult subjects to discuss civilly. I have not attended church for years. I strongly believe that Mormons are persecutors not persecuted. I found myself cheering inside when Mike was spoken over, and even when some of his arguments were belittled and not seriously dealt with. Sadly I think we lost a chance to better understand his thinking. I find myself baffled by my family with a similar prospective. I have been unable to engage them engage them in way that they are willing to explain and maybe even examine their reasoning. I am not trying to call anyone to repentance here. I hope it does not sound like that. I am lamenting my own lack of understanding. I must say the perspectives I hear on Mormon expression keep me sane. I enjoy expositor as well, but I love that expression is back the flavor is a bit more finely aged and I love it. Lindsay I must say FMH podcast is wonderful, love’n what you bring to the table. This said I also think as hard as it is for us to understand I think Mike brings something extremely valuable to the table at ME, and really hope we can remember that as we listen and engage.
    Thank you

  6. Christopher Allman Reply

    No matter how often I hear John say ‘Studio Fist In The Face’ I can’t help but chuckle. It is such a good name. Partly because I can imagine someone actually choosing such a name without any humor but also because it is partly true, Mormon expression holds no punches (fist in the face!).

  7. Christopher Allman Reply

    I would also like to say, this is one of the better panels you’ve had. A great mix of people that had a good mix of tension but respect and nearly all the comments were interesting, at a higher rate than normal.

  8. Furtwangler Reply

    While I don’t agree with Mike’s positions, he is the only person on the panel who knows how to engage in respectful discourse. He was not allowed to finish a single sentence during the entire podcast, without being interrupted by someone trying to put words into his mouth, ridicule his stupidity, or lay rhetorical traps. You don’t treat him with any dignity whatsoever, which makes you look arrogant and insecure. Give him the same respect he gives you, and let him speak for once.

  9. LordofDarkness Reply

    Long time listener, first time comment. Great podcast. As a whole, Mormons are NOT persecuted. Real persecution means “to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict; specifically: to cause to suffer because of belief.” Merriam-Webster.

    While some Mormons perceive bad press, negative publicity or “The Book of Mormon” Musical as persecution, it’s not…it’s just something they don’t like that embarrasses them. And when they launch Prop 8 and lead with their chin, it’s not persecution to take a few punches back from those that don’t agree with you.

    As pointed out on the podcast, having a persecution complex–whether based on reality or delusion–is a great tool for a group, including a religion, because it gives everyone something to rally around.

    But let’s face it, Mormons are NOT persecuted…the PR department takes care of that.

  10. Michael Watson Reply

    A little diversion.. Mike also stated that the National Socialist party was leftist. Not so. The Nazis/Fascsts were/are extreme right wing. Even reactionary. Not at all left or liberal.

  11. AxelDC Reply

    Mike seems to use the same failed logic of persecution that declining majorities always use. White Supremacists cry persecution when they are told that discriminating against blacks or Jews is no longer acceptable in American society. They see themselves as persecuted because the way things were, or the “traditional way”, which placed themselves in a priviledged position, is no longer accepted as the norm. Because their position relative to the formerly oppressed group is declining to even par, they see themselves as losing ground, i.e. persecuted.

    Because the majority of Americans no longer despise gays, and in fact a majority now favors gay majority, conservatives like Mike cry about “persecution” because their views on what they term as “traditional marriage”, i.e. a society where marital rights are denied gays, or interracial marriage, etc. are losing acceptance. Because they see society move away from a stance where their viewpoints were accepted, they see themselves as persecuted. In reality, they were the persecutors and want to usurp the sympathy that their victims used to escape that persecution. They are not materially harmed by gays marrying, or black and white couples marrying, but they see themselves as harmed because their superior position is being lost.

  12. John Spencer Reply

    I was headhunted for a job by a Lutheran church as their organist. When they found out that I was RAISED Mormon, I was rejected for the job on religious basis. When I told my family of the rejection, I tried to explain that it was because they wanted a person raised in “High” church, rather than “low” church. Or in the case of Mormonism, unorthodox Christianity.

    However, my family freaked out because they felt so angry and persecuted. I was the person who didn’t get the job, and I understood why (a religion doesn’t have to hire worship ministers of another religious background), yet they told others and now the local Mormon community is in an uproar.

    The person who was actually “persecuted” doesn’t care! The LDS community has found an actual event where someone was rejected based upon being a “Mormon” so they all rally around the persecution flag. It is quite annoying.

  13. Gabriel McDonald Reply

    Another fantastic episode. Thanks for producing it. It is always a blast to hear Mike on the show!

    The discussion about what does and does not count as persecution, especially comments revolving around things Mike said, reminded me of another podcast discussing the difference in morality of conservatives and liberals. An interesting look into how the two groups groups develop and rationalize their ethical beliefs.


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