Episode 5x: Why the Church Cannot Reform on the Gay Marriage Issues

This recording is one of John’s final as a regular host of Mormon Expression. John takes the microphone alone, and the audio engineer Charles chimes in along with participation by the studio audience.

In this podcast John argues that because of the full body of Mormon theology, the Mormon Church will be unable to reform on the issues of gay acceptance in Mormonism.

Notable Quotes:

“The Church cannot and will not change it’s position on homosexuality.”–John

“You have left one echo chamber and entered into another.” –John

“I will give you a thought exercise. Suppose I have on my desk here research. And I took the top researchers in the world. And we went through and analyzied the top 200 religions of the world–every religion with more than 50,000 people. And we analized them on health living, longevity, happiness, and childrearing. We took every possible psychological and measure of life for quality of living. And we determined which religion is the best. In this thought exercise I have on my desk the name of that religion. You know it is one of the 200 major religions. It could be scientology or it could be Hinduism. You don’t know. But you do know that they came out the top. The scientists looked at it through and through and the scientists say there is statistically significant evidence that this religion is better at life than every other religion.

Without having me reveal the name of the religion would you seriously consider joining that religion without knowing what it was? No one would. And the minute I revealed the name of the religion if it wasn’t yours you would immediately began to construct these long justifications to dismiss the religion. ‘They say they are happier but they aren’t REALLY happy.’ ‘They say they live longer but who wants to live past 80 anyway?’ ‘They say they are good at raising kids, but I hate kids.’

You would immediately, line by line start to deconstruct that.”–John

“There is a bias that believes the liberalization of Mormonism is driving the dialog. And I think it comes from a place of hubris.” –John

“Mormons love when everyone is against them. It gives them a sense of identity and purpose. When they achieve political power they get lost in the woods. When they can play them minority persecution card they love it. The idea that the US move to more tolerance of gays will drive a theological change is ridiculous.” –John

“People who are really into tolerance don’t make good revolutionaries.”–John

“You cannot have a recognition of marriage unless you ordain women also. Those two things have to go hand in hand. The only way out of the dilemma is to ordain women. Otherwise it would be huge blow to females and the feminine.” –John

“It really turns everything on its head. Once you make this change nothing makes sense anymore. The entire theology just goes poof and it has to be completely reconstructed. And once you have to completely reconstruct the theology, what is the point? Why even call yourself Mormon anymore? I have said to liberal Mormon friends ‘what you are describing sounds a lot like Unitarian Universalism, is that what you want?’ And they say “yes.”

Why an overly complicated Unitarian Church that has all of this weird Mormon theology? Why haul that shit around when you could just go become a Unitarian?” –John

“But if [gay reformers] succeed in the Mormon Church what it does is it wipes the whole feminine identity out of the religion completely. The only way to achieve this theological, doctrinally and in practice everyone becomes men. And I don’t think anyone really wants that.” –John

“I think the blows to the doctrines of the Church would be so severe as to to leave the Church crippled to the point that it would have no meaning to its members or no meaning to the world. It couldn’t even articulate what it was about.”–John