Episode 52: Unsolicited Advice

John Larsen is joined by Zilpha, Nyal and Mike to read and discuss listener’s suggestions to the Church.

Episode 52

168 comments on “Episode 52: Unsolicited Advice”

  1. Gunnar R. Reply

    BTW, Mike, though I disagree with much of what you stand for, I, like others here, admire your courage in participating in these podcasts that expose so much of what many honestly regard as fallacies in Church doctrine and practices.

  2. Gunnar R. Reply

    BTW, Mike, though I disagree with much of what you stand for, I, like others here, admire your courage in participating in these podcasts that expose so much of what many honestly regard as fallacies in Church doctrine and practices.

  3. Gunnar R. Reply

    To John:

    Why did all the replies previous to my last reply (#51) disappear or become non-accessible to me after I posted it?

  4. Gunnar R. Reply

    To John:

    Why did all the replies previous to my last reply (#51) disappear or become non-accessible to me after I posted it?

  5. Darin Reply

    How did anyone not suggest a shorter meeting schedule? Just attended yesterday. Three hours is brutal! How about updating the Primary program so it is not so boring? Actually all the curriculum is outdated. At least give me good programming as a reason to keep going.

  6. Darin Reply

    How did anyone not suggest a shorter meeting schedule? Just attended yesterday. Three hours is brutal! How about updating the Primary program so it is not so boring? Actually all the curriculum is outdated. At least give me good programming as a reason to keep going.

  7. Strengthening Church Members C Reply

    To everyone who has submitted ideas, the church would like to thank you. We have logged your names, IP addresses, and ideas. You’ll be hearing from us soon (via your bishop or stake president).

    Sincerely,

    Strengthening Church Members Committee
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

  8. Strengthening Church Members Committee Reply

    To everyone who has submitted ideas, the church would like to thank you. We have logged your names, IP addresses, and ideas. You’ll be hearing from us soon (via your bishop or stake president).

    Sincerely,

    Strengthening Church Members Committee
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

  9. InvisibleChurch Reply

    One more comment for Mike (first, let me join the chorus of thanks for being willing to subject yourself to this sort of thing):

    The best part of the podcast for me was the interchange between Mike and Nyal at the end. “God is not a paperwork God!” – best quote of the evening. Anyway Mike, your reference to Acts 5:1-2 is a bit misdirected in my opinion. That scripture is not about tithing. If you read it in context it’s about lying, not having integrity about what you are doing, trying to fool God. The man was trying to claim he did one thing, when he actually did another. He was a hypocryte – that’s the sin. It’s about lying in a TR interview, or supressing a GA conference talk, to give two examples. Mormons (and others) have a lot to learn from that passage, but the lesson is not about tithing.

  10. InvisibleChurch Reply

    One more comment for Mike (first, let me join the chorus of thanks for being willing to subject yourself to this sort of thing):

    The best part of the podcast for me was the interchange between Mike and Nyal at the end. “God is not a paperwork God!” – best quote of the evening. Anyway Mike, your reference to Acts 5:1-2 is a bit misdirected in my opinion. That scripture is not about tithing. If you read it in context it’s about lying, not having integrity about what you are doing, trying to fool God. The man was trying to claim he did one thing, when he actually did another. He was a hypocryte – that’s the sin. It’s about lying in a TR interview, or supressing a GA conference talk, to give two examples. Mormons (and others) have a lot to learn from that passage, but the lesson is not about tithing.

  11. Mike Tannehill Reply

    Yes, but he and his wife were lying about titheing, which was my point. The law of the tithe was in effect.

    Also I would like to point out the part in the discussion where John cried bull$#!+ on my reference to Van Hale beign allowed to rummage through the churchs records. (Truman Madsen was also allowed to rummage around) If you recall in the interview with Will Bagley he stated that while his appeal to look at something was rejected, a trusted individual was allowed to look at the same material. Keep that in mind when crying about the church hiding its sources.

    • NightAvatar Reply

      Mister IT farther down addressed your tithing claim regarding Acts 5, so I won’t repeat it. I only wonder why you think it was fine for God to *kill* somebody for merely lying – or even for not paying a full tithe (which clearly wasn’t the issue). Ananias was clearly a believer, he just wanted some of the money from selling his property for himself. Why should he be killed for that? Even if attempting to deceive while so doing? (My guess is he knew Peter and gang expected the full amount and he was afraid he wouldn’t be allowed to keep it if he were honest – or would be ridiculed or perhaps lose his calling or similar – so he concocted the lie.)

      And regarding John’s bull$#!+ outcry, you were trying to claim the church is not hiding its sources, when clearly from Will Bagley’s account alone, they are. Even if they let Van Hale rummage around (which I highly doubt, they may have given him access to a specific document or two but full access to “rummage”? What’s your source?) that only proves they are selective of who they share information with – clearly only showing people they trust will give the proper positive spin to the facts.

  12. Mike Tannehill Reply

    Yes, but he and his wife were lying about titheing, which was my point. The law of the tithe was in effect.

    Also I would like to point out the part in the discussion where John cried bull$#!+ on my reference to Van Hale beign allowed to rummage through the churchs records. (Truman Madsen was also allowed to rummage around) If you recall in the interview with Will Bagley he stated that while his appeal to look at something was rejected, a trusted individual was allowed to look at the same material. Keep that in mind when crying about the church hiding its sources.

    • NightAvatar Reply

      Mister IT farther down addressed your tithing claim regarding Acts 5, so I won’t repeat it. I only wonder why you think it was fine for God to *kill* somebody for merely lying – or even for not paying a full tithe (which clearly wasn’t the issue). Ananias was clearly a believer, he just wanted some of the money from selling his property for himself. Why should he be killed for that? Even if attempting to deceive while so doing? (My guess is he knew Peter and gang expected the full amount and he was afraid he wouldn’t be allowed to keep it if he were honest – or would be ridiculed or perhaps lose his calling or similar – so he concocted the lie.)

      And regarding John’s bull$#!+ outcry, you were trying to claim the church is not hiding its sources, when clearly from Will Bagley’s account alone, they are. Even if they let Van Hale rummage around (which I highly doubt, they may have given him access to a specific document or two but full access to “rummage”? What’s your source?) that only proves they are selective of who they share information with – clearly only showing people they trust will give the proper positive spin to the facts.

  13. W2mz Reply

    I’ve only listented about 3/4 of this podcast, but so far I’m enjoying it… My comments:

    – Truthfully allow members to decide what an “honest tithe” is, and if that means giving to a charity of their choice, so be it. Ditto with no more tithing settlement.
    – Stop with the “divine roles” banter. Let the YM be who they want, let the YM be who they want. Teach good life principals but don’t force the YM into being mothers only and the YM to go on missions. If they are not inclined that way, let them be happy in their chosen roles and paths.
    – Stop preaching faith promoting rumors over the pulpit. (Marsh milk strippings, etc.) Too Dunn like.
    – Be open with history. (mentioned)
    – STOP already with the Joseph Smith and big 15 worship.
    – Teach the kids meaningful Sunday School lessons about good living principals, like relationship management, finance, goal setting, career planning, etc. The current SS lessons are too dogmatic and very VERY boring.

    Mike, sorry, but I can’t disagree with you more on pretty much all of your comments in this podcast. If you were to really, really step back, and look at what you are saying (i.e. take off the mormon urim and thummum that you are looking at life through currently) you would gain a whole new perspective on life and reality. You may remain in your faith, but, minimally it would be a eye opening experience for you and you would understand those with differing points of view. You can’t see the forest for the trees my friend.

    John, the podcasts are awesome. Thank you, this is a very needed forum.

    • NightAvatar Reply

      Excellent list. And I agree with your statement about forest for trees. Mike can’t see it, but then he’s in the forest.

  14. W2mz Reply

    I’ve only listented about 3/4 of this podcast, but so far I’m enjoying it… My comments:

    – Truthfully allow members to decide what an “honest tithe” is, and if that means giving to a charity of their choice, so be it. Ditto with no more tithing settlement.
    – Stop with the “divine roles” banter. Let the YM be who they want, let the YM be who they want. Teach good life principals but don’t force the YM into being mothers only and the YM to go on missions. If they are not inclined that way, let them be happy in their chosen roles and paths.
    – Stop preaching faith promoting rumors over the pulpit. (Marsh milk strippings, etc.) Too Dunn like.
    – Be open with history. (mentioned)
    – STOP already with the Joseph Smith and big 15 worship.
    – Teach the kids meaningful Sunday School lessons about good living principals, like relationship management, finance, goal setting, career planning, etc. The current SS lessons are too dogmatic and very VERY boring.

    Mike, sorry, but I can’t disagree with you more on pretty much all of your comments in this podcast. If you were to really, really step back, and look at what you are saying (i.e. take off the mormon urim and thummum that you are looking at life through currently) you would gain a whole new perspective on life and reality. You may remain in your faith, but, minimally it would be a eye opening experience for you and you would understand those with differing points of view. You can’t see the forest for the trees my friend.

    John, the podcasts are awesome. Thank you, this is a very needed forum.

    • NightAvatar Reply

      Excellent list. And I agree with your statement about forest for trees. Mike can’t see it, but then he’s in the forest.

  15. Mister IT Reply

    Great podcast! I absolutely loved it!

    And I appreciate Mike being on these podcasts because of the little gems that he throws at us to deconstruct so we can publicly demonstrate how True Believing Mormons really think and act on those beliefs.

    BTW Mike, a friendly tip from one who’s been guilty of the same and had it come back to haunt him: Kill the arrogant “know-it-all” tone and condescending snickering – all it does is make you and the LdS Church look ugly and unappealing. Everyone – and I mean EVERYONE – is worthy of respectful, polite, courtesy no matter what one may think of their beliefs, behaviors, and values. And if you doubt me I have an abundance of Gordon B. Hinckley quotes I can provide on that VERY point. This was a favorite theme of his – just in case you didn’t know.

    Now with that said here we go . . .

    >For those that are interested in my comment about Noahs flood, see Moses 8:13-15<

    First I thought that this comment was particularly salient: "Using the book of Moses in the PGP as a basis for your argument is like the Scientolgists using Dianetics to bolster their claims" well said DuzTruthMatter.

    So let's get out of the "Mormon Tank" and see what the original – which is source OUTSIDE of the Mormon System – actually says:

    Genesis 6 (King James Version)
    5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

    So Mike, the Biblical narrative says NOTHING about marrying outside the covenant – period. Let's read it again:

    "God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

    According to the Bible THAT was the cause of the Genesis flood not the contrivance that Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon cooked for reasons of their own. Personally I would point to the schisms of 1831 as a probable motivator here but that's nothing more than speculation

    "Most of the New York Saints and many of the earliest Ohio converts did not remain in Ohio. In the summer of 1831, Joseph Smith traveled to the Missouri frontier and identified Independence, Jackson County, Missouri, as a second gathering place. Latter-day Saints anticipated that a holy city, a New Jerusalem, would be established in a new North American Zion, a city of refuge from tribulations that would afflict the wicked in the last days (D&C 29:7-9; 45:65-71; 57:1-3). Sidney Rigdon dedicated the land for gathering, and Joseph Smith designated the specific site where a temple would be built, and, after appointing others to supervise the gathering to Zion, returned to Ohio.

    In Hiram, Ohio, a rural farming community about thirty miles south of Kirtland, Joseph Smith worked on his inspired translation of the Bible (see Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible [JST]), a project that served him as a school. Prayerfully seeking enlightenment about particular passages and doctrines frequently brought new revelation and understanding. After the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, who was serving as his scribe, were beaten and tarred and feathered by a mob in March 1832, they and their families moved to Kirtland."
    http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/1831_1844/eom.htm

    • Mike Tannehill Reply

      You skipped over Genesis 6 vs 1 and 2. Pay attention to the whole context.

  16. Mister IT Reply

    Great podcast! I absolutely loved it!

    And I appreciate Mike being on these podcasts because of the little gems that he throws at us to deconstruct so we can publicly demonstrate how True Believing Mormons really think and act on those beliefs.

    BTW Mike, a friendly tip from one who’s been guilty of the same and had it come back to haunt him: Kill the arrogant “know-it-all” tone and condescending snickering – all it does is make you and the LdS Church look ugly and unappealing. Everyone – and I mean EVERYONE – is worthy of respectful, polite, courtesy no matter what one may think of their beliefs, behaviors, and values. And if you doubt me I have an abundance of Gordon B. Hinckley quotes I can provide on that VERY point. This was a favorite theme of his – just in case you didn’t know.

    Now with that said here we go . . .

    >For those that are interested in my comment about Noahs flood, see Moses 8:13-15<

    First I thought that this comment was particularly salient: "Using the book of Moses in the PGP as a basis for your argument is like the Scientolgists using Dianetics to bolster their claims" well said DuzTruthMatter.

    So let's get out of the "Mormon Tank" and see what the original – which is source OUTSIDE of the Mormon System – actually says:

    Genesis 6 (King James Version)
    5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

    7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

    So Mike, the Biblical narrative says NOTHING about marrying outside the covenant – period. Let's read it again:

    "God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

    According to the Bible THAT was the cause of the Genesis flood not the contrivance that Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon cooked for reasons of their own. Personally I would point to the schisms of 1831 as a probable motivator here but that's nothing more than speculation

    "Most of the New York Saints and many of the earliest Ohio converts did not remain in Ohio. In the summer of 1831, Joseph Smith traveled to the Missouri frontier and identified Independence, Jackson County, Missouri, as a second gathering place. Latter-day Saints anticipated that a holy city, a New Jerusalem, would be established in a new North American Zion, a city of refuge from tribulations that would afflict the wicked in the last days (D&C 29:7-9; 45:65-71; 57:1-3). Sidney Rigdon dedicated the land for gathering, and Joseph Smith designated the specific site where a temple would be built, and, after appointing others to supervise the gathering to Zion, returned to Ohio.

    In Hiram, Ohio, a rural farming community about thirty miles south of Kirtland, Joseph Smith worked on his inspired translation of the Bible (see Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible [JST]), a project that served him as a school. Prayerfully seeking enlightenment about particular passages and doctrines frequently brought new revelation and understanding. After the Prophet and Sidney Rigdon, who was serving as his scribe, were beaten and tarred and feathered by a mob in March 1832, they and their families moved to Kirtland."
    http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/history/1831_1844/eom.htm

    • Mike Tannehill Reply

      You skipped over Genesis 6 vs 1 and 2. Pay attention to the whole context.

  17. Mister IT Reply

    Let’s now deconstruct the NEXT “Mikeism” – that Ananias and Sapphira were struck down for not paying the full tithe.

    First let’s see what the test ACTUALLY says:

    Acts 5 (King James Version)
    1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

    2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

    3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

    4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

    5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

    6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

    7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

    8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

    9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

    10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

    11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

    The key words in the passage were these: “…thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God”. This is reiterated in the exchange that followed with Sapphira:

    8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

    9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?

    Therefore, it’s clear that Ananias and Sapphira were struck down for LYING not for paying the full tithe. To strike them down for not paying the full tithe would be a violation of their free agency would it not?

    As other commentators have noted:

    “In chapter 5, Ananias presented his donation to Peter claiming that it was the entire amount. Peter replied, “Why is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit?” Peter pointed out that Ananias was in control of the money and could give or keep it as he saw fit, but that he had withheld it from Peter and lied about it, and stated that Ananias had not only lied to Peter, but also to God. Ananias died on the spot, and as a result, everyone who heard the tale became afraid. Three hours later, his wife told the same lie and suffered the same fate.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananias_and_Sapphira

    And this concept of free agency is reiterated elsewhere in the New Testament:

    2 Corinthians 9
    7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    I would also ask you to consider 2 Corinthians 8:1-15 (too long to cite here – sorry), and 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 – though there are other passages that I could also cite that support John and Zilpha’s stance and NOT that of legalistic “Iron Rod” Mormon Pharisses like yourself.
    (“Go team!” my . . . . )

    • NightAvatar Reply

      Damn, that was a good post! (Though it looks like you double-posted by mistake.)

      I have long wondered why it can be justified to kill Ananias and his wife for lying – or even for withholding funds, tithing or not. Why was that okay back then but never happens today? My guess is Peter was pissed about not getting more money so he killed Ananias himself. That scared the crap out of people who then paid up and kept quiet! ๐Ÿ˜‰

    • Mike Tannehill Reply

      Is there a difference between not paying a full tithe and lying?

  18. Mister IT Reply

    Let’s now deconstruct the NEXT “Mikeism” – that Ananias and Sapphira were struck down for not paying the full tithe.

    First let’s see what the test ACTUALLY says:

    Acts 5 (King James Version)
    1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

    2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

    3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

    4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

    5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

    6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

    7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

    8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

    9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

    10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

    11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

    The key words in the passage were these: “…thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God”. This is reiterated in the exchange that followed with Sapphira:

    8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

    9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?

    Therefore, it’s clear that Ananias and Sapphira were struck down for LYING not for paying the full tithe. To strike them down for not paying the full tithe would be a violation of their free agency would it not?

    As other commentators have noted:

    “In chapter 5, Ananias presented his donation to Peter claiming that it was the entire amount. Peter replied, “Why is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit?” Peter pointed out that Ananias was in control of the money and could give or keep it as he saw fit, but that he had withheld it from Peter and lied about it, and stated that Ananias had not only lied to Peter, but also to God. Ananias died on the spot, and as a result, everyone who heard the tale became afraid. Three hours later, his wife told the same lie and suffered the same fate.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananias_and_Sapphira

    And this concept of free agency is reiterated elsewhere in the New Testament:

    2 Corinthians 9
    7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    I would also ask you to consider 2 Corinthians 8:1-15 (too long to cite here – sorry), and 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 – though there are other passages that I could also cite that support John and Zilpha’s stance and NOT that of legalistic “Iron Rod” Mormon Pharisses like yourself.
    (“Go team!” my . . . . )

    • NightAvatar Reply

      Damn, that was a good post! (Though it looks like you double-posted by mistake.)

      I have long wondered why it can be justified to kill Ananias and his wife for lying – or even for withholding funds, tithing or not. Why was that okay back then but never happens today? My guess is Peter was pissed about not getting more money so he killed Ananias himself. That scared the crap out of people who then paid up and kept quiet! ๐Ÿ˜‰

    • Mike Tannehill Reply

      Is there a difference between not paying a full tithe and lying?

  19. Mister IT Reply

    Let’s now deconstruct the NEXT “Mikeism” – that Ananias and Sapphira were struck down for not paying the full tithe.

    First let’s see what the test ACTUALLY says:

    Acts 5 (King James Version)
    1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

    2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

    3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

    4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

    5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

    6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

    7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

    8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

    9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

    10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

    11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

    The key words in the passage were these: “…thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God”. This is reiterated in the exchange that followed with Sapphira:

    8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

    9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?

    Therefore, it’s clear that Ananias and Sapphira were struck down for LYING not for paying the full tithe. To strike them down for not paying the full tithe would be a violation of their free agency would it not?

    As other commentators have noted:

    “In chapter 5, Ananias presented his donation to Peter claiming that it was the entire amount. Peter replied, “Why is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit?” Peter pointed out that Ananias was in control of the money and could give or keep it as he saw fit, but that he had withheld it from Peter and lied about it, and stated that Ananias had not only lied to Peter, but also to God. Ananias died on the spot, and as a result, everyone who heard the tale became afraid. Three hours later, his wife told the same lie and suffered the same fate.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananias_and_Sapphira

    And this concept of free agency is reiterated elsewhere in the New Testament:

    2 Corinthians 9
    7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    I would also ask you to consider 2 Corinthians 8:1-15 (too long to cite here – sorry), and 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 – though there are other passages that I could also cite that support John and Zilpha’s stance and NOT that of legalistic “Iron Rod” Mormon Pharisees like yourself.
    (“Go team!” my . . . . )

  20. Mister IT Reply

    Let’s now deconstruct the NEXT “Mikeism” – that Ananias and Sapphira were struck down for not paying the full tithe.

    First let’s see what the test ACTUALLY says:

    Acts 5 (King James Version)
    1But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

    2And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet.

    3But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

    4Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

    5And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

    6And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

    7And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

    8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

    9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

    10Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

    11And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

    The key words in the passage were these: “…thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God”. This is reiterated in the exchange that followed with Sapphira:

    8And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

    9Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?

    Therefore, it’s clear that Ananias and Sapphira were struck down for LYING not for paying the full tithe. To strike them down for not paying the full tithe would be a violation of their free agency would it not?

    As other commentators have noted:

    “In chapter 5, Ananias presented his donation to Peter claiming that it was the entire amount. Peter replied, “Why is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit?” Peter pointed out that Ananias was in control of the money and could give or keep it as he saw fit, but that he had withheld it from Peter and lied about it, and stated that Ananias had not only lied to Peter, but also to God. Ananias died on the spot, and as a result, everyone who heard the tale became afraid. Three hours later, his wife told the same lie and suffered the same fate.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ananias_and_Sapphira

    And this concept of free agency is reiterated elsewhere in the New Testament:

    2 Corinthians 9
    7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

    I would also ask you to consider 2 Corinthians 8:1-15 (too long to cite here – sorry), and 1 Corinthians 16:1-3 – though there are other passages that I could also cite that support John and Zilpha’s stance and NOT that of legalistic “Iron Rod” Mormon Pharisees like yourself.
    (“Go team!” my . . . . )

  21. brandt Reply

    Great podcast. I’m a bit late to the party (been trying to catch up on all the rest of the archives), but from a TBM, even I have some suggest-…unsolicited advice.

    1. Re: selling the CHI through the distribution center to ALL MEMBERS. TOTALLY AGREE. While I consider myself a TBM, the culture of the church kills me. There’s a lot of issues, and IMHO a huge majority of them are based on stupid cultural things. If everyone has access to the CHI, then the leadership problems are kept somewhat in check (“Wait a minute…that question isn’t part of the official temple recommend questions?” “Wait a minute…where does it say you need to wear a white shirt to officiate in priesthood ordinances?”) I’ve been fortunate to have a father who has been in a lot of leadership roles, so the CHI was always part of our life. He’s in his current position because the man has basically memorized it all, and knows the ins-and-outs of the CHI.

    2. Open-Minded-Ness – Here’s what Greg Prince (talking about David O. McKay) said in “David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism”…
    “Each of the three cases sent a strong message that is no less appropriate in today’s church: Mormonism is a broad tent with room beneath it for a while spectrum of beliefs. Or, in the words of a British Stake President, “We’re here to heal people, not to kill them.”
    (pg. 53)

    How true that is. You and I believe differently about WHATEVER. I’m not wrong. You’re not wrong. We’re just different. Let’s learn a little sensitivity, let’s remember that Mormonism is a BROAD tent, for socialists, neo-cons, democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and whatever else might be out there. I’d be really interested to see where and when this huge conservative republican outpouring started, and how it’s gotten to this point.

    3. I would love to see an “advanced” class (like was discussed) but who WOULDN’T attend it? And then you have the potential for a huge gap between converts and “advanced class” folk. I would like to see more training involved in teaching (where you call a teacher and let them know “Look, this is going to be a 5 year calling.” and then have training monthly. Specified training. You’re learning in the NT? You are trained in biblical studies and criticism. That way there’s not the fluffy questions and fluffy answers, but a good teaching going on.

    That’s all I’ve got for now.

  22. brandt Reply

    Great podcast. I’m a bit late to the party (been trying to catch up on all the rest of the archives), but from a TBM, even I have some suggest-…unsolicited advice.

    1. Re: selling the CHI through the distribution center to ALL MEMBERS. TOTALLY AGREE. While I consider myself a TBM, the culture of the church kills me. There’s a lot of issues, and IMHO a huge majority of them are based on stupid cultural things. If everyone has access to the CHI, then the leadership problems are kept somewhat in check (“Wait a minute…that question isn’t part of the official temple recommend questions?” “Wait a minute…where does it say you need to wear a white shirt to officiate in priesthood ordinances?”) I’ve been fortunate to have a father who has been in a lot of leadership roles, so the CHI was always part of our life. He’s in his current position because the man has basically memorized it all, and knows the ins-and-outs of the CHI.

    2. Open-Minded-Ness – Here’s what Greg Prince (talking about David O. McKay) said in “David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism”…
    “Each of the three cases sent a strong message that is no less appropriate in today’s church: Mormonism is a broad tent with room beneath it for a while spectrum of beliefs. Or, in the words of a British Stake President, “We’re here to heal people, not to kill them.”
    (pg. 53)

    How true that is. You and I believe differently about WHATEVER. I’m not wrong. You’re not wrong. We’re just different. Let’s learn a little sensitivity, let’s remember that Mormonism is a BROAD tent, for socialists, neo-cons, democrats, republicans, liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and whatever else might be out there. I’d be really interested to see where and when this huge conservative republican outpouring started, and how it’s gotten to this point.

    3. I would love to see an “advanced” class (like was discussed) but who WOULDN’T attend it? And then you have the potential for a huge gap between converts and “advanced class” folk. I would like to see more training involved in teaching (where you call a teacher and let them know “Look, this is going to be a 5 year calling.” and then have training monthly. Specified training. You’re learning in the NT? You are trained in biblical studies and criticism. That way there’s not the fluffy questions and fluffy answers, but a good teaching going on.

    That’s all I’ve got for now.

  23. Tramnos Reply

    I really appreciate your podcasts, but you really need to work on getting the voice levels of all your panel at the same level. Perhaps some compression after the fact?

  24. Course Correction Reply

    Great advice for teaching kids morality: “Thatโ€™s done by teaching them HOW to choose, not WHAT to choose.” I love your analogy that we are the baby in the bathwater.

  25. dadsprimalscream Reply

    As a former school teacher, I know that the opposite is true too. I had students I LOVED that other teachers couldn’t stand and vice versa. In the teachers’ room they talk glowingly about a student who was a demon in my class. I agree with CC that it has more to do with our innate individuality and not necessarily that we “see what we are looking for.”

    What the church and Mormons in my life can’t do is turn the tables around and apply their same reasoning to themselves. As a gay man, why don’t they just admit that they see what they want to see in me? Instead, they see what they want, help no one and cause more damage by keeping young gay boys in the faith to marry their daughters.

  26. X Reply

    That is excellent advise. I have to agree with you on the idea that people associate the church with the baby though and how ridiculous it is that people would urge you to stay in the church when they have no notion of what it is like to be in the position of disbelieving that would lead one to leave in the first place. It makes much more sense to me to associate the baby with oneself though. Thanks so much for your perspective on this adage that gets tossed about too liberally, in my opinion, when it comes to someone who disaffects from the church.

  27. Irwin Reply

    Hi there, this weekend is nice for me, as this moment i am reading this great educational paragraph here at my residence.

Leave A Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *