In this episode we are talking with special guest Jason, aka “Dr. Shades”, about the Internet vs. Chapel Mormon dichotomy. You can see his webpage dealing with this topic at http://www.mormoninformation.com/imvscm.htm. We discuss the distinction between internet and chapel Mormons, belief patterns in the Church today, orthodoxy, the influence of apologetics today, and the role of General Authorities. We also discuss the reception that Jason’s ideas have received in the Mormon world and particularly FAIR’s response to Jason’s theory.
Upcoming Events
Support Mormon Expression
Subscribe
Be a part of the podcast!
Call and leave your comments for future podcasts, and you can be part of the action! 801-906-6722. You can also email comments or audio to mail@mormonexpression.com.
Friends of Mormon Expression
- A Marvelous Work and a Blunder
- Adventures in the Mormon Underground
- Cauthers Counseling
- Clobber Blog
- Cultural Mormon Cafeteria
- Happy Lost Sheep
- Irresistible (Dis)Grace
- Koda Think Tank
- LDS Revelations Blog
- Main Street Plaza
- Mild Mannered Musings (Chris Smith)
- Mormon Gulag
- Mormon Mission Stories
- Mormon Stories
- Mormon Think
- Seth Payne's Blog
- SLC Freethinking Examiner
- Stay LDS
- Swearing Elders
- The Faithful Dissident
- The River of Heraclitus
- Third-Wave Mormon
- _Want to be a friend of Mormon Discussions?
Useful Links
- Deseret News' Mormon Times
- Dialogue Magazine
- Exmormon.org (RFM)
- FAIR Apologetic Site
- For Those Who Wonder
- Further Light And Knowledge (The Foyer)
- LDS Church News Official Site
- LDS Church official Outreach Page
- Lds Church Official Site
- Maxwell Institute (FARMS)
- Meridian Magazine
- Mormon Apologetic & Discussion Board (MAD)
- Mormon Archipelago
- Mormon Discussions Board
- New Order Mormon
- Post Mormon
- Sunstone Magazine
Follow Us on Facebook
Mormon Expression on Facebook
Here are the links from the show.
Jason’s Website:
http://www.mormoninformation.com/imvscm.htm.
Jason’s Mormon Discussion Board:
http://mormondiscussions.com/
FAIR’s response to Jason:
http://en.fairmormon.org/Internet_Mormons_vs._Chapel_Mormons
Jason’s Sunstone presentation (free mp3 download):
https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/store/8218.html
Very interesting discussions, guys. It was nice to have Jason explain his views. The discussion never actually got around to what I think is one of the more believable criticisms of the dichotomy, which is that not all Internet Mormons use the Internet, whereas some of the Chapel Mormons. Jason has elsewhere clarified that he chose the terms “chapel” and “internet” not because those are the *only* places where you will find each type of Mormonism espoused, but because they are “generally” where you will find each espoused. I think that’s a helpful caveat when using these categories. Anyway, thanks again for putting together these great podcasts!
Again, another great discussion. Thanks!
He fellas. I’m happy to see a Mormon-themed podcast emerge. It’s been way to long.
Congrats for your efforts.
Someday I’d love to chat w/ you guys about your approach, assumptions, etc. Not sure how to do it, but I’d love to figure out a way.
Just a few things for your wish list….
I wish ya’ll could use your real, full names. It would make things a lot more credible and interesting (though I don’t mean to criticize…I know it’s a difficult thing to do (since I’ve done it)).
Ya’ll REALLY need some diversity on your panel if you can muster it. Can’t you find any women to join in? I also wish you had at least one TBM on your panel, or at least a strong NOM or apologist. It would make your conversations (again) way more credible and interesting.
Anyway, congrats. I appreciate your work. This is hard to do, so hats off to you.
I look forward to tuning in occasionally.
Thanks for the suggestions John. I will leave it to the guys to use their last names. Its a personal issue. They can talk to it, but I think it is mostly to protect their families rather than be anonymous.
We are working on diversity. Hey, all my TBM friends out there, we need your voice. Same goes with you sisters!
Anyway, in the next couple of casts will have more diversity.
Thanks again for the suggestions.
John Dehlin,
I appreciate your comments and suggestions. And I would like to address your “wish list” a little bit. As far as using our full names, you know better than anyone what can happen to ones family when his or her identity is forever out there. As for me, I do actually see a day when I can be just as open as you and John Larsen are. You and John have earned my respect for that type of courage, but I simply cannot do that right now. I hope you don’t think I’m a coward, but I have my family to think about.
We have already addressed the female issue and don’t think that John hasn’t asked multiple females to participate. You should feel confident that you will hear a female sooner than later on the podcast.
As far as the TBM/Apologist/NOM on the panel goes. John has invited TBM’s on and we are planning on getting an Apologist as a guest in the future. But to your NOM accusation, I consider myself a NOM, a strong NOM in fact. Now maybe you don’t think I’m NOM enough I guess, but I’m not sure what qualifications I would need to set your mind at ease. I attend church actively and currently have a calling. What do you think I am missing? Am I not defending the church enough in the podcasts? Am I too sympathetic to the opposing view? I am very sympathetic and do understand John, Jim & Nyal’s position. While I don’t agree with some of the things that are said, I think that often their point is vaild and deserves to be heard without me interuppting them.
I appreciate your comments and suggestions. Considering your work with mormonstories I really do appreciate your feedback.
-Tom
Tom,
I’ve only listened to 2 episodes, so it’s probably too early to really opine (my bad).
It does sound at times like a lot of folks who generally agree with each other, which is fine. It’s all about what your goals are. But I’d love to hear someone call the other guys (the critics) on their generalizations and oversimplifications sometimes. It would just make for more interesting listening to have stronger variation of opinion. You need a Mike Ash or a Kevin Barney or a Blake Ostler as a regular panelist. That’s what I think.
But again — my major message is…kudos to ya’ll for stepping up.
I agree that things seem kinda one-sided without a TBM/apologist on hand, but then again, I also understand that a podcast can go in whatever direction it wants. just depends on what you’re trying to do.
I think this is an interesting issue, because without having names for the two “groups” (internet Mormon vs. chapel Mormon), it seemed *intrinsically* true that there was a tremendous difference between the groups. Not even specifically discussing apologists (although I see how the distinction is particularly solid for them), what interested me about the Bloggernacle precisely was the difference. I noticed the difference immediately after going to By Common Consent. and I mean, BCC and T&S aren’t some disaffected or new order mormon blogs. But I noticed that with BCC or Mormon Matters (hi John Dehlin!) or T&S, you had people who are definitely practicing and believing faithfully, but in a vastly different way than what is off-putting and…empty…about what is taught in the chapel.
Not saying it makes me believe more, but it’s more interesting to me to hear what the latest apologist answer is or talk to people through the Bloggernacle and hear their thoughts on doctrinal issues. It’s “fuller” or has more “volume” than what often goes out in a church meeting.
And I get the sense that no matter how much any particular “internet Mormon” might want to talk about how we all could have the same experience in the chapel or every Sunday, it doesn’t seem like that could happen. It seems like it would be rare and would be dependent on certain people. Whereas, when you go to any bloggernacle blog, you get it.
Just had a thought.
I think the reason FAIR and others denounce this is because Dr. Shades makes the bold claim (to highlight the starkness of things) that “there are two different religions.” At face value (and even at value to create the effect it needs to), it *does* have to suggest that one or the other kind of “Mormon” isn’t a true Mormon…Dr. Shades generally wants to show that internet Mormons aren’t “true” Mormons because they imply that the General Authorities are unlearned, ignorant, etc.,
So, for FAIR (which is being aimed at primarily) to try to refute this is not surprising. And for FAIR to try to play it as a “false dilemma” or “false dichotomy” (one that goes so far as to suggest that FAIR’s apologetics imply the brethren to be unlearned, ignorant, or unreliable) is also not surprising.
I had a FANTASTIC time recording this podcast. Thanks for having me on, John!
And thanks to everyone else who has shared their comments here so far.
Fascinating discussion. I noticed this Interent/Chapel dichotomy and was pleased to hear this discussion and see someone who had created such a great description of this phenomenon.
I think that the internet Mormons and the chapel Mormons have constructed a feed back loop. An apologist comes up with a new “Lame” explanation for where Lehi landed and it starts to creep into the mainstream chapel types. The chapel types then spread the new explanation, it gets picked and watered down by the authorities and then the internet picks it up and causes it to further evolve.
Religion works a lot like biological evolution. It probably more resembles punctuated equilibrium (long explanation, so I will go with natural selection). As new adaptations are found to be beneficial they are adopted. Old adaptations that may have worked in the past but no longer work are cast aside. Like evolution though, the cast aside adaptation usually sticks around for a long time and causes problems, think the human appendix.
The same is true with the Church. It has a lot of bad adaptations that at one time led to tremendous growth and now cause infection and thus defection from the Church.