The Natural

I think you’re wise to avoid worrying over the state of your belief or unbelief. That’s simply practical — what, exactly, might a person hope to accomplish by worrying about or trying to force herself to believe anything? It should also be understandable to Christians, since Jesus cautioned against worrying about things that we can’t affect. 

I am a believer myself, but that’s not due to any worry or effort or merit by me. One of the things I believe is that God loves atheists and agnostics as much as he loves the rest of us, and that he leads us all along different paths.

Thank you for your opinion.

Personally I can think of no idol more reified, potent, and idolized than the one introduced in Genesis 3 and addressed – albeit implicitly – in the cited Romans 1 passage: Man worshipping himself.

(head shaking in bewilderment) 
Well Kevin, like so many of your posts, I don’t know what to say because I don’t understand what you’re trying to say. 

I can’t make heads or tails of that post (and the fact that I’m just beginning a new work cycle and have limited time is probably not helping matters). 

Maybe someone else can decipher that post and respond – I’m throwing up my hands at this point (as I have done so many times before).

Kevin, my response to your statements here are 2 fold:

1. Why would God want to live for all eternity with people who don’t believe him, who reject him. God is love, he doesn’t want to pollute his heaven with people who don’t love him.

2. If God destroyed our souls, that would make him a murderer and that would break one of His 10 commandments. Thou shalt not murder.

Pretty simple, in my opinion.

Kevin, please consider the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man:

Jesus said, “There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed in purple and fine linen and who lived each day in luxury. At his gate lay a poor man named Lazarus who was covered with sores. As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores.

“But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’” 
[Luke 16:19-31 (NLT)]

The whole story is interesting I would like to focus on the Rich Man.  Please don’t what he didn’t do: - He didn’t demand that an injustice had been done. - He didn’t ask to be removed from hell and taken to heaven. 
- He didn’t ask to have his anguish permanently ended. 

In fact, he seems to acknowledge that his fate was fair – so fair in fact, that  his biggest request was that someone tell his brothers that they should ‘repent of their sins and turn to God’ lest they join him in the ‘the place of the dead’ rather than ‘in the bosom of Abraham’ (as it was known by the Jews of Christ’s time). 

To this request Abraham explains that they’ve been warned by Mose and the prophets and goes on to explain,  ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead,’ that last phrase is, of course, a reference to Christ. 

In other words, Christ was telling the listeners plainly (paraphrasing), “The way to avoid the Rich Man’s fate has already been explained to you by Moses and the prophets – greatest of which is speaking to you now – there’s really no mystery here folks! You can repent and turn to God and join Lazarus or you can continue in your sin and join the Rich Man – the choice now is as it has always been.”

Kevin I apologize that I wasn’t clearly in my last post because I’ve already addressed each of your major points in it:

YOU WROTE
I honestly can’t think ofanything that is more likely to be evil than to be allowed to “dwell in eternal hell” when He that allows is capable of annihilating. Can you? Perhaps not, since you said that my presuppositions “seem like reasonable assertions to” you.

MY RESPONSE
It occurs to me now that you may be unfamiliar with the term, “meta-data” (which is why I suspect portions of my last post seem to have ‘whooshed’ right over your head) so let me define it for you.

Meta means:
“Meta- (from Greek: μετά = “after”, “beyond”, “adjacent”, “self”), is a prefix used in English (and other Greek-owing languages) to indicate a concept which is an abstraction from another concept, used to complete or add to the latter.”

So in the context that we’re in, it’s data that’s BEYOND the data that we currently have.

What I was sawing was that perhaps our problem in understanding here is that we’re only looking at a SUBSET of the total data that’s available on this subject.

I think it’s reasonable if we had the full subset that Abraham, Lazarus, and the Rich Man have we would say, “Oh, now I get it!” rather than, “This seems unjust and unfair.”

That’s why I said in my last post:
“you might consider questioning your presuppositions instead – perhaps there’s some meta-data or key evidence that we’re missing. Personally I recommend this one Kevin and that’s the option that I’ve taken. If you want to criticize me for putting the issue “on the shelf” in TBM fashion that’s fine. However, I feel that I have SOME meta-data that justifies doing so.

For example, as stated previously, what I do know from the Bible is that God doesn’t send anyone to hell – we choose to go there just like I chose to go to “funds deprivation hell” by going 81-miles an hour in 65-mile an hour zone. The CHP didn’t send me there, I sent me there. The CHP is just and so is God.”

Let me say it again Kevin, God doesn’t send anyone to hell. We send ourselves. So you’re blaming the wrong guy for the Rich Man’s fate.

YOU WROTE
how did you come to the conclusion that “what the Bible says IS the case”?

MY RESPONSE
A: Because I’ve read the Bible – many times in fact. The picture of hell given in the Lazarus and the Rich Man narrative is clearly delineated within it’s pages – all you have to do is read it.

YOU WROTE
It would appear that you’re lead by your reasoning to the LDS method of finding out the truth about God, namely that every person needs to ask God a question about some theological point and count on God answering that question directly.

MY RESPONSE
Oh, I have no problem asking God questions – no problem at all. However, if the answer contradicts the Bible and/or is in discontinuity with it, it’s clearly NOT from God and discarded. It’s the latter part that Joseph Smtih, Jr. stripped out Mormonism so that he became the ultimate authority rather than God through His revealed, written word. To cite one Mormon Studies Scholar, Robert N. Hullinger, who said well:

“In defense of God, Joseph Smith assailed the natural revelation of deism and the static revelation of traditional Christianity. To enable revealed religion to overcome natural religion, however, he supported the deistic attack upon the view that the present Bible is God’s complete and errorless revelation to mankind. Destruction of the traditional view left him free to preserve special revelation by his own means.”
(Robert N. Hullinger, Mormon Answer to Skepticism: Why Joseph Smith Wrote the Book of Mormon, Clayton Publishing House, 1980, p. 150)

YOU WROTE
Later on in your post you said that you “don’t worry too much about the Rich Man’s fate because it’s not” your fate.

That reminds me of a statement I heard some time back; I apologize for not remembering the precise description of some of the ethnic groups.

MY RESPONSE
Your example is fallacious. One doesn’t choose one’s ethnic group, you’re born into it and, therefore, have no choice in the matter.

As stated multiple times in this thread now: One chooses one’s eternal fate. Once again (from my prior post):

” “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.”
(Romans 6:23 New Living Translation)

And like all free gifts I could choose to take it, or leave it. I took it. What are you going to do? Take it or take the Mormon counterfeit that makes you work off the cost of something that the Bible clearly says is a FREE gift?”

YOU WROTE
I would trust the God Joseph Smith described long, long before I trusted the God Biblical Christians describe.

MY RESPONSE
Really? If so then you’re trusting the man of whom his personal secretary (the one who transcribed many, if not most, of the early revelations now in D&C) said:

“This then is the conclusion of the whole matter; they [Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon] lie by revelation, swindle by revelation, cheat and defraud by revelation, run away by revelation, and if they do not mend their ways, I fear that they will at last be damned by revelation.”
(Warren Parrish, Letter to the Editor of The PAINESVILLE REPUBLICAN; Feb. 5, 1838; http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/OH/painerep.htm)

And if you had been alive and “following the prophet” while Joseph Smith was alive here’s what you might expect:

1) To lose your estate and fortune in fraudulent banks and land deals.
(Kirtland Anti-Bank and Kirtland Temple Land Deal)

2) To share your wife with the prophet.
(11 of Joseph Smith’s polygamous wives were already married to members of his church)

3) To suffer disease, near-starvation and humiliation in an ill-advised military operation.
(Zion’s Camp)

4) To be told that a common Egyptian Book of Breathings was actually “The Lost Book of Abraham” – a blatant lie.
(The “lost” Book of Abraham)

5) To not have his conviction for fraud disclosed.
( The 1826 Josiah Stowel case)

6) To not be told that your secret Temple Endowment ceremonies were plagariazed from the rites of Freemasonry.
(too many references on this to cite just one)

7) To be publicly lied to about his secret adulteries – including member’s wives and daughters.
(again, too many references on this to cite just one)

And I’m sure that I’ve missed a few.
This web site has a good summation with supporting links: http://www.smithbusters.com/SmithBusters/About_Joseph.html

So, to me, I just can’t see choosing a man like this over YaHWeH Elohim. But, Kevin, it’s your life . . .

YOU WROTE
How have you come to the conclusion that that latter deity is trustworthy?

MY RESPONSE
Because I have a long track record of seeing His hand of faithfulness over the long haul. Yes, I’ve seen many a trial in my life but I’ve also seen how in the long haul they were used for good not evil. My testimony is the same as the Biblical Joseph’s who said to the very men who had sold him into slavery:

“…you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good…”
– Genesis 50:20 (NASB)

YOU WROTE
If I can’t trust that deity to do the right thing regarding the eternal fate of the unsaved, how can I trust that deity to do anything?

MY RESPONSE
Two things:
1) As stated previously: How do you know that your presuppositions are accurate relative to the meta-data?

2) If you absolutely refuse to change your stance on #1 then you have the same problem with the Mormon God Kevin ….

The following Book of Mormon passages speak of the eternality of hell and describe it in detail, while the Mormon religion claims that hell is not eternal (“Mormon Doctrine” by McConkie, LDS Bible Dictionary – see “hell,” and D&C 19:4-12).

1 Nephi 14:3 And that great pit, which hath been digged for them by that great and abominable church, which was founded by the devil and his children, that he might lead away the souls of men down to hell — yea, that great pit which hath been digged for the destruction of men shall be filled by those who digged it, unto their utter destruction, saith the Lamb of God; not the destruction of the soul, save it be the casting of it into that hell which hath no end.

1 Nephi 15:29,35
29 And I said unto them that it was a representation of that awful hell, which the angel said unto me was prepared for the wicked.
35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

2 Nephi 2:29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.

2 Nephi 9:12,19
12 And this death of which I have spoken, which is the spiritual death, shall deliver up its dead; which spiritual death is hell; wherefore, death and hell must deliver up their dead, and hell must deliver up its captive spirits, and the grave must deliver up its captive bodies, and the bodies and the spirits of men will be restored one to the other; and it is by the power of the resurrection of the Holy One of Israel.

19 O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

2 Nephi 28:19-23
19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well — and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he [the devil] flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none — and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

Jacob 7:18 And he spake plainly unto them, that he had been deceived by the power of the devil. And he spake of hell, and of eternity, and of eternal punishment.

Alma 5
6 And now behold, I say unto you, my brethren, you that belong to this church, have you sufficiently retained in remembrance the captivity of your fathers? Yea, and have you sufficiently retained in remembrance his mercy and long-suffering towards them? And moreover, have ye sufficiently retained in remembrance that he has delivered their souls from hell?

7 Behold, he changed their hearts; yea, he awakened them out of a deep sleep, and they awoke unto God. Behold, they were in the midst of darkness; nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word; yea, they were encircled about by the bands of death, and the chains of hell, and an everlasting destruction did await them.

8 And now I ask of you, my brethren, were they destroyed? Behold, I say unto you, Nay, they were not.

9 And again I ask, were the bands of death broken, and the chains of hell which encircled them about, were they loosed? I say unto you, Yea, they were loosed, and their souls did expand, and they did sing redeeming love. And I say unto you that they are saved.

10 And now I ask of you on what conditions are they saved? Yea, what grounds had they to hope for salvation? What is the cause of their being loosed from the bands of death, yea, and also the chains of hell?

Helaman 6:28
And also it is that same being who put it into the hearts of the people to build a tower sufficiently high that they might get to heaven. And it was that same being who led on the people who came from that tower into this land; who spread the works of darkness and abominations over all the face of the land, until he dragged the people down to an entire destruction, and to an everlasting hell.

Moroni 8:13
Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

(NOTE: the following verses do not speak of the actual eternality of hell. They just lend additional proof that “hell” should be a taught Mormon doctrine, since [the alleged prophet] “Mormon” formed a book that speaks so extensively about the subject. This is not an exhaustive list.)

2 Nephi 1:15
But behold, the Lord hath redeemed my soul from hell; I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love.

2 Nephi 24:15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

2 Nephi 26:10
And when these things have passed away a speedy destruction cometh unto my people; for, notwithstanding the pains of my soul, I have seen it; wherefore, I know that it shall come to pass; and they sell themselves for naught; for, for the reward of their pride and their foolishness they shall reap destruction; for because they yield unto the devil and choose works of darkness rather than light, therefore they must go down to hell.

2 Nephi 28:15
O the wise, and the learned, and the rich, that are puffed up in the pride of their hearts, and all those who preach false doctrines, and all those who commit whoredoms, and pervert the right way of the Lord, wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!

2 Nephi 33:6
I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

Jacob 3:11
O my brethren, hearken unto my words; arouse the faculties of your souls; shake yourselves that ye may awake from the slumber of death; and loose yourselves from the pains of hell that ye may not become angels to the devil, to be cast into that lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.

Alma 13:30
And may the Lord grant unto you repentance, that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death.

Alma 14:6
And it came to pass that Zeezrom was astonished at the words which had been spoken; and he also knew concerning the blindness of the minds, which he had caused among the people by his lying words; and his soul began to be harrowed up under a consciousness of his own guilt; yea, he began to be encircled about by the pains of hell.

Alma 26:13-14
13 Behold, how many thousands of our brethren has he loosed from the pains of hell; and they are brought to sing redeeming love, and this because of the power of his word which is in us, therefore have we not great reason to rejoice?
14 Yea, we have reason to praise him forever, for he is the Most High God, and has loosed our brethren from the chains of hell.

3 Nephi 12:22, 30
22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
30 For it is better that ye should deny yourselves of these things, wherein ye will take up your across, than that ye should be cast into hell.

(NOTE: here are a couple of non-Book of Mormon bonuses, where Joseph Smith allegedly received revelations regarding “hell.” But, again, not speaking specifically to the etrnality of hell, as do the seven Book of Mormon passages at the beginning of this post.)

D&C 10:26
And thus he flattereth them, and leadeth them along until he draggeth their souls down to hell; and thus he causeth them to catch themselves in their own snare.

D&C 76:84
These are they who are thrust down to hell.

(source http://www.concernedchristians.com/index.php?option=com_fireboard&Itemid=42&func=view&catid=505&id=84142 )

… sorry to be the bearer of bad news but there it is Kevin – the Mormon God seems to send the unsaved to exactly the same place that the Christian God that you mistrust so much does! Sorry.